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RE: [tied] Etymology of Gr. SkutHe:s 'Scythian'

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  • Sergejus Tarasovas
    ... ... Yes, I know. ... But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai Scythians . ... But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better candidate (if it really exists).
    Message 1 of 12 , May 31, 2004
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      > From: Āąäčģ Ļīķąš˙äīā [mailto:ponaryad@...]


      > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected with Old
      > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also in
      > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is present
      ...

      Yes, I know.

      >also in Akkadian

      But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.

      > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
      > than Saka, isn't it?

      But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.

      > Though some hystorians consider that
      > Skudra are not Scytheans, but Thracians...

      Thus in the Kent's list. He doesn't comment much on why he prefers that explanation.

      Sergei
    • Joao
      If Persian saka was Indo-Iranian, there must be an Indian equivalent *s^aka. Is there? If it is IE, we d expect a form *k^e/o/akWos or k^NkWos. ... From:
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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        If Persian saka was Indo-Iranian, there must be an Indian equivalent *s^aka. Is there?
        If it is IE, we'd expect a form *k^e/o/akWos or k^NkWos.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:31 AM
        Subject: RE: [tied] Etymology of Gr. SkutHe:s 'Scythian'

        > From: Āąäčģ Ļīķąš˙äīā [mailto:ponaryad@...]


        > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected with Old
        > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also in
        > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is present
        ...

        Yes, I know.

        >also in Akkadian

        But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.

        > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
        > than Saka, isn't it?

        But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.

        > Though some hystorians consider that
        > Skudra are not Scytheans, but Thracians...

        Thus in the Kent's list. He doesn't comment much on why he prefers that explanation.

        Sergei


      • Sergejus Tarasovas
        If Persian saka was Indo-Iranian, there must be an Indian equivalent *s^aka. Is there? Old Indic s aknó:ti is able , s á:kah. help; power and the stuff in
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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          Message
           
          If Persian saka was Indo-Iranian, there must be an Indian equivalent *s^aka. Is there? 
           
          Old Indic s'aknó:ti 'is able', s'á:kah. 'help; power' and the stuff in Pokorny under k^ak-.
           
          If it is IE, we'd expect a form *k^e/o/akWos or k^NkWos. 
           
           Eg., k^ek(W)- 'be able, achieve etc.'
           
          Sergei
        • Вадим Понарядов
          ... This is in Assyrian sources, but in Akkadian versions of Achaemenid inscriptions only iskudra, and I don t know if the latter and a/is^guzai are really
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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            >> I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected with Old
            >> Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also in
            >> Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is present
            ...

            > Yes, I know.

            >> also in Akkadian

            > But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.

            This is in Assyrian sources, but in Akkadian versions of Achaemenid
            inscriptions only iskudra, and I don't know if the latter and a/is^guzai are
            really connected.


            >> Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
            >> than Saka, isn't it?

            > But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better candidate (if it really
            exists). Why, for one, would the Greeks just not render the name as
            *Skudrai? On the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable substitution for a
            foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.

            I think, it could sound originally something like, e.g., *skudRa, where the
            R is voiceless. Or, maybe, not exactly so, but the idea is that neither
            Greeks nor Persians could pronounce it in the original way, and had to
            replace the "difficult" sounds with ones more appropriate to their
            languages. If so, even sku:ca / sku:ça and Assyrian is^kuzai can represent
            the same original form - unpronounceable for foreigners.


            ==========
            Vadim Ponaryadov
          • george knysh
            ... *****GK: Way back in 1872 V. Yurgevich had argued that Borysthenes and Danapris designated the same river+river geographical point, with
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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              --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:
              > > From: ���������� ������������������
              > [mailto:ponaryad@...]
              >
              >
              > > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected
              > with Old
              > > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also
              > in
              > > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is
              > present
              > ...
              >
              > Yes, I know.
              >
              > >also in Akkadian
              >
              > But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.
              >
              > > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
              > > than Saka, isn't it?
              >
              > But sku:ca- (or sku:��a-) would look like a better
              > candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would
              > the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On
              > the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable
              > substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.

              *****GK: Way back in 1872 V. Yurgevich had argued that
              "Borysthenes" and "Danapris" designated the same "
              river+river" geographical point, with transposition of
              parts and shifted sounds. Thus "Dana-pris" =
              (tr.)"Thenes-borys" (one of those situations where a
              river was known by different names at different
              points, here both "Dana" or something like in the
              south and "Borys" or something like it further north.
              The point being that Greek "tH" could be the
              equivalent of non Greek "d" (Greek "t" obviously
              could: cf. Tanais). If Yurgevich was right, then
              perhaps the "tH" in Skuthes might be the equivalent of
              a "d" pointing to "Skud-" Would this lead us to
              Skudra? Or to something else? In any caes the meaning
              of the postulated "Skud**" is sometimes given as
              "archer", "bowman". Does this sound plausible?******





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            • Joao Simoes Lopes Filho
              How about SKYTHE:S
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2004
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                How about SKYTHE:S < *SKHUTHE: < *(Z)gHug(W)He:- or (Z)gHug^H-, cf.
                Gog, and Sanskir Guha "name of a forest tribe and a savage hunter
                mentioned at Mahabharata". Perhaps Akkadian azguza fits in it.


                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@s...> wrote:
                > > > From: Āąäčģ Ļīķąš˙äīā
                > > [mailto:ponaryad@o...]
                > >
                > >
                > > > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected
                > > with Old
                > > > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also
                > > in
                > > > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is
                > > present
                > > ...
                > >
                > > Yes, I know.
                > >
                > > >also in Akkadian
                > >
                > > But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.
                > >
                > > > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
                > > > than Saka, isn't it?
                > >
                > > But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better
                > > candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would
                > > the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On
                > > the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable
                > > substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.
                >
                > *****GK: Way back in 1872 V. Yurgevich had argued that
                > "Borysthenes" and "Danapris" designated the same "
                > river+river" geographical point, with transposition of
                > parts and shifted sounds. Thus "Dana-pris" =
                > (tr.)"Thenes-borys" (one of those situations where a
                > river was known by different names at different
                > points, here both "Dana" or something like in the
                > south and "Borys" or something like it further north.
                > The point being that Greek "tH" could be the
                > equivalent of non Greek "d" (Greek "t" obviously
                > could: cf. Tanais). If Yurgevich was right, then
                > perhaps the "tH" in Skuthes might be the equivalent of
                > a "d" pointing to "Skud-" Would this lead us to
                > Skudra? Or to something else? In any caes the meaning
                > of the postulated "Skud**" is sometimes given as
                > "archer", "bowman". Does this sound plausible?******
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
                > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
              • Joao
                I meant some substratum non-IE word, adopted as *(z)gHugH or something like. ... From: Sergejus Tarasovas To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 03,
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 3, 2004
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                  I meant some substratum non-IE word, adopted as *(z)gHugH or something like.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 12:21 PM
                  Subject: RE: [tied] Etymology of Gr. SkutHe:s 'Scythian'

                  > From: Joao Simoes Lopes Filho [mailto:josimo70@...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 4:16 PM
                  > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [tied] Etymology of Gr. SkutHe:s 'Scythian'
                  >
                  >
                  > How about SKYTHE:S < *SKHUTHE: < *(Z)gHug(W)He:- or (Z)gHug^H-, cf.
                  > Gog, and Sanskir Guha "name of a forest tribe and a savage hunter
                  > mentioned at Mahabharata". Perhaps Akkadian azguza fits in it.
                  >

                  Do you mean a native PIE word or a pre-PIE substrate one? The latter would
                  agree with Marr's (and early marristic Abaev) theory ("Japhetic" *(s)kul-
                  plus NE Iranian collective -ta < *ta:)  :)

                  Sergei


                • Sergejus Tarasovas
                  ... Do you mean a native PIE word or a pre-PIE substrate one? The latter would agree with Marr s (and early marristic Abaev) theory ( Japhetic *(s)kul- plus
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 3, 2004
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                    > From: Joao Simoes Lopes Filho [mailto:josimo70@...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 4:16 PM
                    > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [tied] Etymology of Gr. SkutHe:s 'Scythian'
                    >
                    >
                    > How about SKYTHE:S < *SKHUTHE: < *(Z)gHug(W)He:- or (Z)gHug^H-, cf.
                    > Gog, and Sanskir Guha "name of a forest tribe and a savage hunter
                    > mentioned at Mahabharata". Perhaps Akkadian azguza fits in it.
                    >

                    Do you mean a native PIE word or a pre-PIE substrate one? The latter would
                    agree with Marr's (and early marristic Abaev) theory ("Japhetic" *(s)kul-
                    plus NE Iranian collective -ta < *ta:) :)

                    Sergei
                  • Michael Smith
                    Joao, you mention Gog, but how does this Biblical term fit in here? -Michael
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 3, 2004
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                      Joao, you mention Gog, but how does this Biblical term fit in here?

                      -Michael


                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao Simoes Lopes Filho"
                      <josimo70@y...> wrote:
                      > How about SKYTHE:S < *SKHUTHE: < *(Z)gHug(W)He:- or (Z)gHug^H-, cf.
                      > Gog, and Sanskir Guha "name of a forest tribe and a savage hunter
                      > mentioned at Mahabharata". Perhaps Akkadian azguza fits in it.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@s...> wrote:
                      > > > > From: Āąäčģ Ļīķąš˙äīā
                      > > > [mailto:ponaryad@o...]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected
                      > > > with Old
                      > > > > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also
                      > > > in
                      > > > > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is
                      > > > present
                      > > > ...
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, I know.
                      > > >
                      > > > >also in Akkadian
                      > > >
                      > > > But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.
                      > > >
                      > > > > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
                      > > > > than Saka, isn't it?
                      > > >
                      > > > But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better
                      > > > candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would
                      > > > the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On
                      > > > the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable
                      > > > substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.
                      > >
                      > > *****GK: Way back in 1872 V. Yurgevich had argued that
                      > > "Borysthenes" and "Danapris" designated the same "
                      > > river+river" geographical point, with transposition of
                      > > parts and shifted sounds. Thus "Dana-pris" =
                      > > (tr.)"Thenes-borys" (one of those situations where a
                      > > river was known by different names at different
                      > > points, here both "Dana" or something like in the
                      > > south and "Borys" or something like it further north.
                      > > The point being that Greek "tH" could be the
                      > > equivalent of non Greek "d" (Greek "t" obviously
                      > > could: cf. Tanais). If Yurgevich was right, then
                      > > perhaps the "tH" in Skuthes might be the equivalent of
                      > > a "d" pointing to "Skud-" Would this lead us to
                      > > Skudra? Or to something else? In any caes the meaning
                      > > of the postulated "Skud**" is sometimes given as
                      > > "archer", "bowman". Does this sound plausible?******
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________
                      > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
                      > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
                    • Joao Simoes Lopes Filho
                      Gog, king of Magog is usually associated to cites and to Greek Gyges. ... cf. ... hunter
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 3, 2004
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                        "Gog, king of Magog" is usually associated to cites and to Greek
                        Gyges.
                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Smith"
                        <mytoyneighborhood@s...> wrote:
                        > Joao, you mention Gog, but how does this Biblical term fit in here?
                        >
                        > -Michael
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao Simoes Lopes Filho"
                        > <josimo70@y...> wrote:
                        > > How about SKYTHE:S < *SKHUTHE: < *(Z)gHug(W)He:- or (Z)gHug^H-,
                        cf.
                        > > Gog, and Sanskir Guha "name of a forest tribe and a savage
                        hunter
                        > > mentioned at Mahabharata". Perhaps Akkadian azguza fits in it.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@s...> wrote:
                        > > > > > From: Āąäčģ Ļīķąš˙äīā
                        > > > > [mailto:ponaryad@o...]
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected
                        > > > > with Old
                        > > > > > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also
                        > > > > in
                        > > > > > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is
                        > > > > present
                        > > > > ...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, I know.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >also in Akkadian
                        > > > >
                        > > > > But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
                        > > > > > than Saka, isn't it?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better
                        > > > > candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would
                        > > > > the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On
                        > > > > the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable
                        > > > > substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.
                        > > >
                        > > > *****GK: Way back in 1872 V. Yurgevich had argued that
                        > > > "Borysthenes" and "Danapris" designated the same "
                        > > > river+river" geographical point, with transposition of
                        > > > parts and shifted sounds. Thus "Dana-pris" =
                        > > > (tr.)"Thenes-borys" (one of those situations where a
                        > > > river was known by different names at different
                        > > > points, here both "Dana" or something like in the
                        > > > south and "Borys" or something like it further north.
                        > > > The point being that Greek "tH" could be the
                        > > > equivalent of non Greek "d" (Greek "t" obviously
                        > > > could: cf. Tanais). If Yurgevich was right, then
                        > > > perhaps the "tH" in Skuthes might be the equivalent of
                        > > > a "d" pointing to "Skud-" Would this lead us to
                        > > > Skudra? Or to something else? In any caes the meaning
                        > > > of the postulated "Skud**" is sometimes given as
                        > > > "archer", "bowman". Does this sound plausible?******
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > __________________________________
                        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
                        > > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
                      • Michael Smith
                        Yes, I know, it s thought to be connected to Mat-Gugu , but I don t understand how you are connecting this Semitic word etymologically with Skythe:s and with
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 9, 2004
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                          Yes, I know, it's thought to be connected to "Mat-Gugu", but I don't
                          understand how you are connecting this Semitic word etymologically
                          with Skythe:s and with the Sanskrit Guha? Ashkenaz would be the
                          Biblical equivalent here, equated with the Assyrian Ashkuza (the
                          Scythians.)

                          -Michael


                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao Simoes Lopes Filho"
                          <josimo70@y...> wrote:
                          > "Gog, king of Magog" is usually associated to cites and to Greek
                          > Gyges.
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Smith"
                          > <mytoyneighborhood@s...> wrote:
                          > > Joao, you mention Gog, but how does this Biblical term fit in
                          here?
                          > >
                          > > -Michael
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao Simoes Lopes Filho"
                          > > <josimo70@y...> wrote:
                          > > > How about SKYTHE:S < *SKHUTHE: < *(Z)gHug(W)He:- or (Z)gHug^H-,
                          > cf.
                          > > > Gog, and Sanskir Guha "name of a forest tribe and a savage
                          > hunter
                          > > > mentioned at Mahabharata". Perhaps Akkadian azguza fits in it.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@s...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > From: Āąäčģ Ļīķąš˙äīā
                          > > > > > [mailto:ponaryad@o...]
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I do not know if Gr. skutHe:s is really connected
                          > > > > > with Old
                          > > > > > > Pers. saka-, but in Old Persian inscriptions (also
                          > > > > > in
                          > > > > > > Akkadian and Elamite versions) a form _skudra_ is
                          > > > > > present
                          > > > > > ...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Yes, I know.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >also in Akkadian
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But cf. Akk. as^guzai, is^kuzai 'Scythians'.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Phonetically Skudra is much closer to Skuthe:s
                          > > > > > > than Saka, isn't it?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But sku:ca- (or sku:ça-) would look like a better
                          > > > > > candidate (if it really exists). Why, for one, would
                          > > > > > the Greeks just not render the name as *Skudrai? On
                          > > > > > the other hand, /tH/ looks like a probable
                          > > > > > substitution for a foreign s(h)ibilant affricate.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > *****GK: Way back in 1872 V. Yurgevich had argued that
                          > > > > "Borysthenes" and "Danapris" designated the same "
                          > > > > river+river" geographical point, with transposition of
                          > > > > parts and shifted sounds. Thus "Dana-pris" =
                          > > > > (tr.)"Thenes-borys" (one of those situations where a
                          > > > > river was known by different names at different
                          > > > > points, here both "Dana" or something like in the
                          > > > > south and "Borys" or something like it further north.
                          > > > > The point being that Greek "tH" could be the
                          > > > > equivalent of non Greek "d" (Greek "t" obviously
                          > > > > could: cf. Tanais). If Yurgevich was right, then
                          > > > > perhaps the "tH" in Skuthes might be the equivalent of
                          > > > > a "d" pointing to "Skud-" Would this lead us to
                          > > > > Skudra? Or to something else? In any caes the meaning
                          > > > > of the postulated "Skud**" is sometimes given as
                          > > > > "archer", "bowman". Does this sound plausible?******
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > __________________________________
                          > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
                          > > > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
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