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Re: [tied] Re: Rise of the Feminine (was: -osyo 3)

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  • Joao
    Could the Greek -id had some relationship with Semitic and Egyptian feminine -t ? Joao SL ... From: Richard Wordingham To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent:
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 24, 2004
      Could the Greek -id had some relationship with Semitic and Egyptian feminine -t ?
       
      Joao SL
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:44 PM
      Subject: [tied] Re: Rise of the Feminine (was: -osyo 3)

      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham"
      > <richard.wordingham@n...> wrote:

      > > Don't thematic adjectives of two terminations (i.e. identical
      > > masculine and feminine) argue for the feminine being 'recent'?
      > > I
      > > think the same could be said for the various feminine-only
      > > adjectives that occur in Greek.
      >
      > What is meant by this?

      There are a fair few consonant stem adjectives in -d- that do not
      have corresponding masculine or neuter forms:

      _basile:ï's_, _basilís_ 'kingly, royal'
      _gorgôpis_ 'fierce-eyed, terrible'
      _dendrôtis_ 'wooded'
      _dikthás_ 'double, divided'
      _dolôpis_ 'artful-looking'
      _Do:rís_ 'Doric, Dorian'

      Many have clearly related adjectives applicable to at least
      masculine and feminine:

      basíleios (3-termination)
      _gorgó:ps_, _gorgo:pós_ (2-termination)
      _dikhthádios_ 'wooded'
      _Do:rikós_, Dó:rios 'Doric, Dorian'

      An interesting pair, perhaps reflecting an original, chaotic state
      of affairs is the pair
      _do:matí:te:s_ (masculine, 1st declension)
      _do:matîtis_ (feminine, 3rd declension in -d-)
      'belonging to the house or household'.

      Should I be looking forward to hearing how Greek -id- is a byform
      of //yeh2// ? :)

      > My arguments for the antiquity of the feminine are as follows:
      >
      > 1. The fem. of athematic is formed by a suffix //-yeH2-// which
      > shows ablaut. The process that brought about ablaut was long over
      > when Anatolian broke off from the rest of IE, for wordforms ablaut
      > in Anatolian just as they do in the other branches.

      Does this argue for the antiquity of the feminine _gender_, or just
      for the antiquity of the facultative formation of feminine
      substantives?

      I've not discussed the other arguments as at present I have nothing
      remotely useful to say about them.

      Richard.

    • Richard Wordingham
      ... Egyptian feminine -t ? The relationship has already been implicitly claimed for the PIE pronominal neuter singular *-d, as part of the (pre-PIE)-(Afro-
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 24, 2004
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao" <josimo70@y...> wrote:
        > Could the Greek -id had some relationship with Semitic and
        Egyptian feminine -t ?

        The relationship has already been implicitly claimed for the PIE
        pronominal neuter singular *-d, as part of the (pre-PIE)-(Afro-
        Asiatic)-(Central Khoisan) sprachbund (
        http://members.pgv.at/homer/INDOEURO/afroasia.htm ), which shows
        genders and possibly some communality of gender-related affixes.
        Starostin has recently published what seems a careful analysis of
        100-word lists (Mother Tongue Issue VIII, 2003), which shows that
        with the exception of Sandawe and Hadze, whose inclusion remains
        uncertain, Khoisan is a genetic unit.

        Richard.
      • Harald Hammarstrom
        ... I haven t seen his analysis but similar approaches have fared ill before. I actually had the chance to speak to Tom Gu ldemann a few weeks ago and he
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 25, 2004
          > Starostin has recently published what seems a careful analysis of
          > 100-word lists (Mother Tongue Issue VIII, 2003), which shows that
          > with the exception of Sandawe and Hadze, whose inclusion remains
          > uncertain, Khoisan is a genetic unit.

          I haven't seen his analysis but similar approaches have fared ill before.
          I actually had the chance to speak to Tom Gu"ldemann a few weeks ago and
          he grouped Khoisan into 6 genetic unit: Hadza, Sandawe, South Khoisan,
          Central Khoisan + Kwadi, Northern Khoisan and #Ho~a. The novelty is that
          Kwadi was tentatively joined with Central Khoisan since Gu"ldemann
          got access to the unpublished field notes.
          mvh
          Harald
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