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Re: [tied] Whence Grimm?

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  • tgpedersen
    ... Correction: From Thuringia to Jutland and Fyn. Not Sjælland. Not the Scandinavian peninsula. ... Evidence? Not that I m absolutely opposed to that; some
    Message 1 of 87 , Apr 1, 2004
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
      > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > So what I would like to know is: in what way does
      > > "the prevailing
      > > view" construe a path of continuity from the
      > > Przeworsk culture to the
      > > later Germanic speaking ones
      >
      > I don't think it can
      > > be denied that
      > > Przeworsk was _a_ root of Germanic culture, but it
      > > seems those roots
      > > were widely divergent.
      >
      > *****GK: The argument seems to run thus (there are
      > many sources for it; I have relied on the more recent
      > Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian literature):
      >
      > The source of Germanicism in the east is the area of
      > the Jastorf culture which existed in North Germany and
      > Southern Scandinavia from the mid-first millennium BC.

      Correction: From Thuringia to Jutland and Fyn. Not Sjælland. Not the
      Scandinavian peninsula.


      > Many Jastorf groups migrated eastward beginning ca.
      > 300 BC, sometimes in conjunction with La Tene groups
      > (Celtic) sometimes independently. They mixed with
      > "local culture" groups there, and after a period of
      > co-existence contributed to the emergence of new
      > cultures most of which in the progress of time became
      > preponderantly Germanic as to language.

      Evidence? Not that I'm absolutely opposed to that; some of Kuhn's
      supposed Nordwestblock words appear in North Germanic, which is
      difficult to understand if they belong in the Nordwestblock
      geographic area, since the invasion into Scandinavia by Germanic
      speakers shouldn't have brought these words with them then.



      >Przeworsk was
      > one such culture. The early complex mix involved Celts
      > (La Tene) Germanics (Jastorf) and "locals" (Late
      > LUsatian, Pomorian etc.)of uncertain IE speech. By the
      > period of the Roman Empire, Przeworsk can be
      > associated with the historical Vandals.

      That matches with the fact that the northern province of Jutland,
      north of the Limfjord which has evidence of Oder-Warthe intrusion is
      named Vendsyssel < Wendlæ syssæl, the inhabitants are called
      vendelboer.

      >The claim is
      > not that P. is THE source of Germanic culture. It is A
      > Germanic culture. So when P. backflows into Jastorf
      > (as you say) it is as though one Germanic culture
      > mixed with another.

      According to Peschel and Jan Derk Boosen: "Das Oder-Warthe-gebiet in
      der Przeworsk-Kultur während der ausgehenden vorrömischen Eisenzeit
      und der älteren Kaiserzeit" the Oder-Warthe elements in Jastorf
      appear foreign. But we are quibbling over words. You are stressing
      the Jastorf roots of the Przeworsk culture, I the eastern ones.

      Besides, with the merging of two "Germanic" cultures we would expect
      a number of words in Germanic that appeared similar, but were not
      identical. That is not the case, apart from some of the supposed
      Nordwestblock words.


      >It is believed that the earliest
      > attested name of a Germanic group in the east is that
      > of the SCIRI (Skiroi of the Olbian inscriptions). This
      > name was earlier analyzed on Cybalist. The date for it
      > is "sometime prior to 230 BC".

      Now that was a bad tactical move. Once you mention the Skiri, you'll
      bring up the Bastarnae, who, according to the contemporary sources,
      were Skiri mixed with Sarmatians. This is of course not an
      archaeological argument; don't hesitate to indicate if you feel it is
      inappropriate.

      BTW the names 'Sciri' and 'Bastarnae' are good evidence that these
      peoples spoke some type of Germanic. And the word 'saddle' (PGmc
      *saðula, cf Slavic sedlo, Latin sella < *sed-la) which because it is
      different from what we'd expect in an inherited Germanic word (cf.
      Geraman Sattel "saddle", Sessel "seat") must be a loan. The /a/
      for /e/ indicates Indo-Iranian, the retained /s-/ instead of
      Iranian /h-/ indicates Indian (of which some languages still remained
      at the Sea of Azov), and although Classical Sanskrit has /r/ for /l/,
      Eastern Prakrits show that some Indic dialects might have had /l/.
      The Oder-Warthe intrusive aristocratic graves in Jastorf occasionally
      have spurs, so they must have been a mounted warrior caste.


      Torsten
    • altamix
      ... lit. ... Mangelhafte Erklärung seitens von Ivo Hajnal da es keine ernstzunehmende Quelle bennent:-) I suspect he is not the only one. It happens I have
      Message 87 of 87 , Apr 27, 2004
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        > Ivo Hajnal, Methodische Vorbereitungen zu einer Paleolinguistik des
        > Balkanraums, in
        > Bammesberger, Vennemann(eds.), Laguages in Prehistoric Europe
        >
        > ...vgl. thrak. (gloss.) skálme: "Schwert" < */skolma:/ (vgl.
        lit.
        > skélti)...
        >
        > Torsten

        Mangelhafte Erklärung seitens von Ivo Hajnal da es keine
        ernstzunehmende Quelle bennent:-)
        I suspect he is not the only one. It happens I have fount recently
        the same mention in an another work and this is "Ancient Languages of
        the Balkan" of Radoslav Katic^ic^
        He mention too the word "skalme" but as Ivo Hajnal, there is no
        reference where is mentioned this glosse and why it should
        mean "sword". Again the same odd style of " we suppose it meant
        so_and_so" because "see Lit. skelti" :-))

        Thank you Thorsten . It appears there are a lot of shcolars which
        simply copy each other without bother to verify what about. So bad
        for a lot of conclusions from a such manner to abord the things.


        Alex
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