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Re: [tied] Re: Andere

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  • Joao S. Lopes
    It`s probably just a coincidence, but there is a Portuguese surname ANDRADA or ANDRADE. Joao SL alex wrote: ... Andrada is tracian
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 18, 2004
      It`s probably just a coincidence, but there is a Portuguese surname ANDRADA or ANDRADE.
       
      Joao SL

      alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
      Joao S. Lopes wrote:
      > Alexandra is just a later female form of Greek Alexandros, which is
      > sometimes analised as from Hittite-like Alakhshandush.
      >
      > Kassandra is a Trojan name, and it`s a good choice. Greek names in
      > -andros have usual female as -aneira (Leandros/Leaneira,
      > Deiandros/Deianeira). I`d guess Kassandra < Kash-/Kish-/Kush-,
      > Anatolian Moon-God.

      "Andrada" is tracian feminine name. No idea what it could mean and it
      begins with "andra-" in this case.
      I wonder if Romanian "mândru/mândrã" (lover) has any connection here
      or this is indeed a derivation from Slavic "mo~dru" which should have
      meant "wise". I hope Czech "modru" here is not from Slavic "mo~drU"
      since so far I remember this is an adjectiv and means "blue".

      P.S. some people see Rom. noun "mândru" (lover) as a simply adaptation
      of the adjective "mândru"= proud.

      Alex



      Yahoo! Mail - O melhor e-mail do Brasil. Abra sua conta agora!

    • CG
      I wrote ... I forgot to add that some see Basque andere ( woman ) as a loan from Celtic, as opposed to the various related Celtic words being derived from
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 18, 2004
        I wrote
        > This might be related to Welsh anner (from Brittonic
        > *andera) "heifer", but Gaulish had a root andero- meaning "below,
        > infernal"

        I forgot to add that some see Basque andere ("woman") as a loan from
        Celtic, as opposed to the various related Celtic words being derived
        from Basque. See Xavier Delamarre's Dictionnaire de la langue
        gauloise (under the entry for anderos).

        - Chris Gwinn
      • Abdullah Konushevci
        ... from ... derived ... ************ According to H. Krahe, root *and- is very much present also in Illyrian: And•et•ri•on/And•et•ri•um (place
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 18, 2004
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "CG" <sonno3@h...> wrote:
          > I wrote
          > > This might be related to Welsh anner (from Brittonic
          > > *andera) "heifer", but Gaulish had a root andero- meaning "below,
          > > infernal"
          >
          > I forgot to add that some see Basque andere ("woman") as a loan
          from
          > Celtic, as opposed to the various related Celtic words being
          derived
          > from Basque. See Xavier Delamarre's Dictionnaire de la langue
          > gauloise (under the entry for anderos).
          >
          > - Chris Gwinn
          ************
          According to H. Krahe, root *and- is very much present also in
          Illyrian: And•et•ri•on/And•et•ri•um (place name); personal names:
          And•en•us, And•ue•ia, And•uenna (Tomaschek, B.B. 9, 99).
          I wonder could this root be also related to Alb. <ânde/ënde> 'flower'
          (Delamarre, IED, 155) with cognates in Greek <anthos> 'id.', Skt
          <andhas-> and arm. <and>.

          Konushevci
        • loreto bagio
          ... to add that some see Basque andere ( woman ) as a loan ... flower ... Hmm..yes, anthropos , humans could be anyone of the ff. 1. A
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 20, 2004
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci" > > I forgot
            to add that some see Basque andere ("woman") as a loan
            > from
            > > Celtic, as opposed to the various related Celtic words being
            > derived
            > > from Basque. See Xavier Delamarre's Dictionnaire de la langue
            > > gauloise (under the entry for anderos).
            > >
            > > - Chris Gwinn
            > ************
            > According to H. Krahe, root *and- is very much present also in
            > Illyrian: And•et•ri•on/And•et•ri•um (place name); personal names:
            > And•en•us, And•ue•ia, And•uenna (Tomaschek, B.B. 9, 99).
            > I wonder could this root be also related to Alb.
            <ânde/ënde> 'flower'
            > (Delamarre, IED, 155) with cognates in Greek <anthos> 'id.', Skt
            > <andhas-> and arm. <and>.
            >
            > Konushevci

            Hmm..yes, 'anthropos', 'humans' could be anyone of the ff. 1. A
            survivor of that Vasconic-prePIE relationship which brings us Basque
            _andere_ and Gk _andr_ or 2. Ancestor of both 3. A direct descendant
            of Gk _andr_.
            I was comparing the words with the Hebrew for Adam and Eve. the first
            according to Biblical translators more aptly for 'human beings' while
            the second 'mankind'. Somehow the distinctions become blurred. But
            other societies with almost near resemblances really see them (those
            near resemblances) as 'man' and 'woman'. And 'Eve' really seem to be
            the 'other side' or 'opposite' of Adam while Adam himself seem to
            be 'other side' of something. Perhaps if Adam was reddish or earthly,
            the point of reference could either be blackish (more earthly) or
            something heavenly or divine.

            I really do not know but I suspect Gk _andr_ can best be compared
            with the I in IE that is 'sindhus' (Indus river) or the god Indra.
            Indra is the king of the pantheon and ruler of a heaven of pleasures
            where brave men who died in battle go. He is known as 'Son of Might'
            and 'Lord of Powers'. His parentage was supposed to be that of Heaven
            and Earth (like the Sumerian 'Enki') who once lived together but were
            driven apart. Indra's great feat was the Slaying of the Serpent, the
            dragon Vritra (Vrta), known as the covering or Restrainer who held
            confined the Cosmic Waters and their son the Sun. Their moisture and
            light were necessary for the Creation of the Universe.

            Basically I see words with -Vnd- or -Vnt- as something with a
            particular negation. We can see those in 'antedeluvian', before the
            flood, "Anti-", suffix denoting 'opposite', 'rival', 'before'. In
            English we also saw something like 'antero', which
            denotes 'after', 'front', 'fore'.
            An interesting word would be the English _hind_, 'behind', 'situated
            behind', 'in the rear', 'posterior'. But other meanings trace the
            word 'hind' from the protoforms *kemti or *kem- 'hornless', young
            deer or 'female of a red deer'.

            So the negations of -Vnd- or -Vnt- could be something older than
            something, something younger (a son or descendant), before, after. If
            the point of reference was something divine, then it could be humans
            (like perhaps anthropos, mannus, adamah). If the point of reference
            was man then it could be woman (like Basque _andere_). But the Gk
            _andr_ male may have not started from a point of reference which is
            female. MOre likely it came from something as a negation of those not
            humans, possibly divine (the -r in _Andr_).

            All in all I see also the mysterious Meditteranean words with final
            ending -inthos as related (like the river Sindhus). Near Troy was the
            river Scamander also known as Xanthos or Xanthus. Later words with -
            Vnd- or -Vnt- although probably initially referring to men will get
            divine attributes. Or in some instances they were first, and
            themselves initially divine.

            Loreto
          • Miguel Carrasquer
            On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:06:26 +0000, CG ... The masculine equivalent of feminine Andere in the Aquitanian onomastic material seems to be
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 24, 2004
              On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:06:26 +0000, CG <sonno3@...>
              wrote:

              >I forgot to add that some see Basque andere ("woman") as a loan from
              >Celtic, as opposed to the various related Celtic words being derived
              >from Basque. See Xavier Delamarre's Dictionnaire de la langue
              >gauloise (under the entry for anderos).

              The masculine equivalent of feminine Andere in the
              Aquitanian onomastic material seems to be Andoss- (= Basque
              *andotz or *andots). Gorrochategui thinks of a connection
              with the Basque element -ots in ordots/ordotz "boar; male
              animal" and bildots "lamb". But there is nothing in Basque
              corresponding to a feminine suffix -ere, and the status of
              -ots as a suffix is somewhat compromised by the fact that
              there are no simplex forms *ord- ("pig" is urde, urdan-) or
              *bild-.

              On the other hand, if Andoss- were a loan from Celtic, one
              might imagine Aq. -oss = Bq. -otz < Celtic -os. Does a
              Gaulish word *andos exist? Was the intensive prefix and-
              ever nominalized in Celtic (I'm thinking here also of Basque
              (h)andi "big")?


              =======================
              Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
              mcv@...
            • loreto bagio
              ... To bother Greek-Basque associations again, how would Basque (h)andi and Spanish gigante (English giant from Gk gigantikos or gigas ) relate? Would
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 26, 2004
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                > On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:06:26 +0000, CG <sonno3@h...>
                > wrote:
                > On the other hand, if Andoss- were a loan from Celtic, one
                > might imagine Aq. -oss = Bq. -otz < Celtic -os. Does a
                > Gaulish word *andos exist? Was the intensive prefix and-
                > ever nominalized in Celtic (I'm thinking here also of Basque
                > (h)andi "big")?
                >
                >
                > =======================
                > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                > mcv@w...

                To bother Greek-Basque associations again, how would Basque (h)andi
                and Spanish 'gigante' (English 'giant' from Gk 'gigantikos'
                or 'gigas') relate?
                Would it be easy to say that the Greek forms can be attributed to
                earth or Gaea? Or the 'giants' being earth-born (from Greek myths,
                the fourth of the kind of large creatures, the Hecatonchires
                or 'hundred handed', being the first, the Cyclopes or the wheel-eyed
                being the second, and the third the Titans) or Gaea-antis.
                The Basque (h)andi reminds of the contemporary Arabic word (mo)handis
                or 'engineer'. Supervisor or 'foreman' is 'modir'. But so far, quite
                long-range.

                Loreto
              • Miguel Carrasquer
                On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:54:22 +0000, loreto bagio ... Not. Basque handi (also haundi) comes from *and- plus adjectival suffix *-i. I m pretty sure the root
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 27, 2004
                  On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:54:22 +0000, loreto bagio
                  <bagoven20@...> wrote:

                  >To bother Greek-Basque associations again, how would Basque (h)andi
                  >and Spanish 'gigante' (English 'giant' from Gk 'gigantikos'
                  >or 'gigas') relate?

                  Not. Basque handi (also haundi) comes from *and- plus
                  adjectival suffix *-i. I'm pretty sure the root *and must
                  be a borrowing, because old *nd/*nt gives Basque /d/ (e.g.
                  *s^un- "to smell" -> sudurr "nose" (< *s^un + tur/dur).

                  =======================
                  Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                  mcv@...
                • tgpedersen
                  ... andi ... Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi (h)andi was loaned into Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-). Now you ve made an orphan out
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 27, 2004
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                    > On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:54:22 +0000, loreto bagio
                    > <bagoven20@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >To bother Greek-Basque associations again, how would Basque (h)
                    andi
                    > >and Spanish 'gigante' (English 'giant' from Gk 'gigantikos'
                    > >or 'gigas') relate?
                    >
                    > Not. Basque handi (also haundi) comes from *and- plus
                    > adjectival suffix *-i. I'm pretty sure the root *and must
                    > be a borrowing, because old *nd/*nt gives Basque /d/ (e.g.
                    > *s^un- "to smell" -> sudurr "nose" (< *s^un + tur/dur).
                    >

                    Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was loaned into
                    Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-). Now you've made an
                    orphan out of it;-)

                    Torsten
                  • Miguel Carrasquer
                    On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:25:46 +0000, tgpedersen ... That s completely impossible. ... If you insist on a proto-Vasconic *grandi ( gara(d)i), Bq. garai means
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 27, 2004
                      On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:25:46 +0000, tgpedersen
                      <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                      >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                      >> On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:54:22 +0000, loreto bagio
                      >> <bagoven20@y...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> >To bother Greek-Basque associations again, how would Basque (h)
                      >andi
                      >> >and Spanish 'gigante' (English 'giant' from Gk 'gigantikos'
                      >> >or 'gigas') relate?
                      >>
                      >> Not. Basque handi (also haundi) comes from *and- plus
                      >> adjectival suffix *-i. I'm pretty sure the root *and must
                      >> be a borrowing, because old *nd/*nt gives Basque /d/ (e.g.
                      >> *s^un- "to smell" -> sudurr "nose" (< *s^un + tur/dur).
                      >>
                      >
                      >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was loaned into
                      >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).

                      That's completely impossible.

                      >Now you've made an orphan out of it;-)

                      If you insist on a proto-Vasconic *grandi (> gara(d)i), Bq.
                      garai means "high, tall".

                      =======================
                      Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                      mcv@...
                    • tgpedersen
                      ... into ... But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it! Which part is impossible, the PVasc. Basque or the PVasc. Latin / Germanic? (btw
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 29, 2004
                        > >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was loaned
                        into
                        > >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).
                        >
                        > That's completely impossible.

                        But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it! Which
                        part is impossible, the PVasc. > Basque or the PVasc. > Latin /
                        Germanic?

                        (btw the PGmc should be *graut-)


                        > >Now you've made an orphan out of it;-)
                        >
                        > If you insist on a proto-Vasconic *grandi (> gara(d)i), Bq.
                        > garai means "high, tall".
                        >

                        How about this:
                        "Language of geminates": *grandi-
                        loan into early Proto-Vasconic
                        *grandi- > (h)andi
                        loan into late Proto-Vasconic
                        *grandi- > gara(d)i-
                        loan into Proto-Latin (north of the Alps)
                        *grandi > grandi-
                        loan into Proto-Germanic
                        *grandi > *grãut- > *graut-

                        so that the "language of geminates" becomes the donor? The structure
                        of *grandi- fits.

                        I think I should presuppose here that the "language of geminates" is
                        not the IE Nordwestblock, but its non-IE predecessor.

                        Torsten
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... structure ... is ... In case you ve been following the grave discussion (Greek tumpho-, tapho-) in Austronesian, you will probably have noticed the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 29, 2004
                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was loaned
                          > into
                          > > >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).
                          > >
                          > > That's completely impossible.
                          >
                          > But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it! Which
                          > part is impossible, the PVasc. > Basque or the PVasc. > Latin /
                          > Germanic?
                          >
                          > (btw the PGmc should be *graut-)
                          >
                          >
                          > > >Now you've made an orphan out of it;-)
                          > >
                          > > If you insist on a proto-Vasconic *grandi (> gara(d)i), Bq.
                          > > garai means "high, tall".
                          > >
                          >
                          > How about this:
                          > "Language of geminates": *grandi-
                          > loan into early Proto-Vasconic
                          > *grandi- > (h)andi
                          > loan into late Proto-Vasconic
                          > *grandi- > gara(d)i-
                          > loan into Proto-Latin (north of the Alps)
                          > *grandi > grandi-
                          > loan into Proto-Germanic
                          > *grandi > *grãut- > *graut-
                          >
                          > so that the "language of geminates" becomes the donor? The
                          structure
                          > of *grandi- fits.
                          >
                          > I think I should presuppose here that the "language of geminates"
                          is
                          > not the IE Nordwestblock, but its non-IE predecessor.
                          >

                          In case you've been following the "grave" discussion (Greek tumpho-,
                          tapho-) in Austronesian, you will probably have noticed the
                          similarity of the structure of that root complex to that of (non-IE?)
                          Nordwestblock root complexes (single/geminated, voiced/unvoiced, pre-
                          nasalised/non-prenasalised). If that indeed is where that root
                          complex belongs, we can identify the donor language with that of the
                          megalith-builders.

                          Torsten
                        • Miguel Carrasquer
                          On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:58:19 +0000, tgpedersen ... PVasc Basque. Vennemann, if I recall, argues that gr- becomes r- (elimination of initial clusters) and
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 29, 2004
                            On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:58:19 +0000, tgpedersen
                            <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >> >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was loaned
                            >into
                            >> >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).
                            >>
                            >> That's completely impossible.
                            >
                            >But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it! Which
                            >part is impossible, the PVasc. > Basque or the PVasc. > Latin /
                            >Germanic?

                            PVasc > Basque. Vennemann, if I recall, argues that gr-
                            becomes r- (elimination of initial clusters) and then r- > 0
                            (elimination of initial r-).

                            Of course it's true that Basque does not allow initial
                            clusters, nor initial r-. But the way Basque deals with
                            that in the cases of gr- and r- is by (1) inserting a vowel
                            (Lat. granu > Bq. garau), and (2) prefixing a vowel (Lat.
                            rege(m) > Bq. errege). Nothing we know about Basque
                            indicates that /g/ was ever deleted in the cluster /gr-/,
                            nor that /r-/ was ever deleted when word-initial.


                            =======================
                            Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                            mcv@...
                          • tgpedersen
                            ... loaned ... Which ... True, it s speculation on Vennemann s part. He is aware of Basque s way of dealing with loans, but ascribes it to a later period (I
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 30, 2004
                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                              > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:58:19 +0000, tgpedersen
                              > <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > >> >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was
                              loaned
                              > >into
                              > >> >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).
                              > >>
                              > >> That's completely impossible.
                              > >
                              > >But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it!
                              Which
                              > >part is impossible, the PVasc. > Basque or the PVasc. > Latin /
                              > >Germanic?
                              >
                              > PVasc > Basque. Vennemann, if I recall, argues that gr-
                              > becomes r- (elimination of initial clusters) and then r- > 0
                              > (elimination of initial r-).
                              >
                              > Of course it's true that Basque does not allow initial
                              > clusters, nor initial r-. But the way Basque deals with
                              > that in the cases of gr- and r- is by (1) inserting a vowel
                              > (Lat. granu > Bq. garau), and (2) prefixing a vowel (Lat.
                              > rege(m) > Bq. errege). Nothing we know about Basque
                              > indicates that /g/ was ever deleted in the cluster /gr-/,
                              > nor that /r-/ was ever deleted when word-initial.
                              >

                              True, it's speculation on Vennemann's part. He is aware of Basque's
                              way of dealing with loans, but ascribes it to a later period (I
                              think). He argues that for Basque to have the constraint on initial
                              consonant clusters, it might at one time in the past have had rules
                              that removed them. Whether the result is worth the extra machinery to
                              be assumed is a matter of taste. But it is nice to get some more
                              flesh and bones on those ephemeral languages of the North West.

                              Torsten
                            • luenpasanta
                              ... loaned ... Which ... , ... IE?) ... pre- ... the ... Good Afternoon from Bilbao. Your conjecture is All rigth. We are sure that the --Euskeras language--
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 1, 2004
                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                                wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was
                                loaned
                                > > into
                                > > > >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).
                                > > >
                                > > > That's completely impossible.
                                > >
                                > > But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it!
                                Which
                                > > part is impossible, the PVasc. > Basque or the PVasc. > Latin /
                                > > Germanic?
                                > >
                                > > (btw the PGmc should be *graut-)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > >Now you've made an orphan out of it;-)
                                > > >
                                > > > If you insist on a proto-Vasconic *grandi (> gara(d)i), Bq.
                                > > > garai means "high, tall".
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > How about this:
                                > > "Language of geminates": *grandi-
                                > > loan into early Proto-Vasconic
                                > > *grandi- > (h)andi
                                > > loan into late Proto-Vasconic
                                > > *grandi- > gara(d)i-
                                > > loan into Proto-Latin (north of the Alps)
                                > > *grandi > grandi-
                                > > loan into Proto-Germanic
                                > > *grandi > *grãut- > *graut-
                                > >
                                > > so that the "language of geminates" becomes the donor? The
                                > structure
                                > > of *grandi- fits.
                                > >
                                > > I think I should presuppose here that the "language of geminates"
                                > is
                                > > not the IE Nordwestblock, but its non-IE predecessor.
                                > >
                                >
                                > In case you've been following the "grave" discussion (Greek tumpho-
                                ,
                                > tapho-) in Austronesian, you will probably have noticed the
                                > similarity of the structure of that root complex to that of (non-
                                IE?)
                                > Nordwestblock root complexes (single/geminated, voiced/unvoiced,
                                pre-
                                > nasalised/non-prenasalised). If that indeed is where that root
                                > complex belongs, we can identify the donor language with that of
                                the
                                > megalith-builders.
                                >
                                > Torsten

                                Good Afternoon from Bilbao.

                                Your conjecture is All rigth. We are sure that the --Euskeras
                                language-- agglutinating no IE. Arrive to the Atlantic Sea like
                                migration in the Magdaleniense period from the north Caspio and Black
                                Sea area, in which, was the Atapuerca people impregnated. Best
                                regards. Enrique.
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