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agony? ( it was: Re: Yugoslawia)

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  • Daniel J. Milton
    ... neologism ... etimology ... ******* Alex, do your searching before you post your free-association musings. From on-line Merriam-Webster: ag·o·ny
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
      >
      > Mmmm..hmm.. agoj < *agonj < *agonyos ? That remember me of
      neologism
      > agony in English and the meaning by now appears very interesting.
      > I would like to search in the evening about the ultimately
      etimology
      > of "agony", maybe one finds something out.
      >
      > Alex
      *******
      Alex, do your searching before you post your free-association
      musings.
      From on-line Merriam-Webster:
      " ag·o·ny
      Etymology: Middle English agonie, from Late Latin agonia, from Greek
      agOnia struggle, anguish, from agOn gathering, contest for a prize,
      from agein to lead, celebrate" (< *ag^-)
      Dan
    • altamix
      ... Greek ... First, thank you for the info Daniel. Second, I don t know if this is indeed just a free association.Rom. a ajuna , Alb. agjërim (
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
        wrote:
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Mmmm..hmm.. agoj < *agonj < *agonyos ? That remember me of
        > neologism
        > > agony in English and the meaning by now appears very interesting.
        > > I would like to search in the evening about the ultimately
        > etimology
        > > of "agony", maybe one finds something out.
        > >
        > > Alex
        > *******
        > Alex, do your searching before you post your free-association
        > musings.
        > From on-line Merriam-Webster:
        > " ag·o·ny
        > Etymology: Middle English agonie, from Late Latin agonia, from
        Greek
        > agOnia struggle, anguish, from agOn gathering, contest for a prize,
        > from agein to lead, celebrate" (< *ag^-)
        > Dan

        First, thank you for the info Daniel.
        Second, I don't know if this is indeed just a free
        association.Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
        fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
        very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?

        But we ar off topic by now regarding "jug" as "south". It appears the
        Alb. "jug" and Slavic *jug-" are not related to these roots from the
        point of view of the semantic aspect.

        Alex
      • Daniel J. Milton
        ... Rom. a ajuna , Alb. agjërim ( *agenim(?)) means to ... ******** No. The obvious source of Rom. ajuna is Latin jejunus fasting (non-religious in
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
          Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
          > fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
          > very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
          ********
          No.
          The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
          (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin). This
          etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful etymology"
          for the Latin.
          'Jejunus' is a peculiar-looking word. Any suggestions here?
          Dan
        • altamix
          ... etymology ... Your obvious is far away from being obvious here. The Latin form does not explain Romanian and Albanian forms which begin both with a .
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
            wrote:
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
            > Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
            > > fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
            > > very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
            > ********
            > No.
            > The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
            > (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin).
            > This
            > etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful
            etymology"
            > for the Latin.
            > 'Jejunus' is a peculiar-looking word. Any suggestions here?
            > Dan

            Your "obvious" is far away from being obvious here. The Latin form
            does not explain Romanian and Albanian forms which begin both
            with "a".
            This is why DEX consider a potentialy *adjunare for Romanian, leting
            the Albanian "e" unexplained "ageron" with this form. How would you
            like to get an "a" from Latin "je" in Alb. and Rom?
            jejunus > ajun or jejunus > *agenon > ageron in Albanian?

            I suspect here we have to deal with a form as *ageo:n- which will
            explain Rom. "u" and Alb. "e".

            For Rom: ageo:n > ag^on > ajun
            For Alb: ageo:n > ageen > agen + suffix "on" for verbs

            The same situation appears in the words as Latin "semi",
            Greek "hemis" and Alb. "gjymë(sã)" and Rom. "jumã(tate)" but in this
            case there appear we have to deal with an short "o" since it
            became "u" in Albanian as well, thus:
            *seom- > s^om- > jum- in Rom
            *seom- > s^om- > gjym-

            I assume the change s^> gj ( Rom. j) was probale since this is to see
            in Sarpe = gjarpë or Sase = gjash(te) as well.

            The funny thing, we have on a side Latin and Greek with an "e"
            (semis, hemis) and on another side Alb. and Rom. with "u".
            I don't sustain my derivation is the best and I will love to see some
            other opinion as well.

            Latin influence in both of these words (ajuna/agenon, gyumë/juma)are
            absolutely excluded and in the religious therminology of Romanian,
            the ecclesiast Latin therms are simply unknown so far I am informed.

            Alex
          • m_iacomi
            ... Also source for Fr. (à) jeun , It. digiuno , Cat. dejuni , etc. Regards, Marius Iacomi
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" wrote:

              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" wrote:
              >> Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
              >> fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
              >> very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
              > ********
              > No.
              > The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
              > (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin). This
              > etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful etymology"
              > for the Latin.

              Also source for Fr. "(à) jeun", It. "digiuno", Cat. "dejuni", etc.

              Regards,
              Marius Iacomi
            • Daniel J. Milton
              ... ... too ... Latin jejunus fasting ... leting ... you ... but in this ... see ... some ... are ... informed. ... ********* I m happy
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton"
                <dmilt1896@a...>
                > wrote:
                > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...>
                wrote:
                > > Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
                > > > fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are
                too
                > > > very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
                > > ********
                > > No.
                > > The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is
                Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
                > > (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin).
                > > This
                > > etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful
                > etymology"
                > > for the Latin.
                > > 'Jejunus' is a peculiar-looking word. Any suggestions here?
                > > Dan
                >
                > Your "obvious" is far away from being obvious here. The Latin form
                > does not explain Romanian and Albanian forms which begin both
                > with "a".
                > This is why DEX consider a potentialy *adjunare for Romanian,
                leting
                > the Albanian "e" unexplained "ageron" with this form. How would
                you
                > like to get an "a" from Latin "je" in Alb. and Rom?
                > jejunus > ajun or jejunus > *agenon > ageron in Albanian?
                >
                > I suspect here we have to deal with a form as *ageo:n- which will
                > explain Rom. "u" and Alb. "e".
                >
                > For Rom: ageo:n > ag^on > ajun
                > For Alb: ageo:n > ageen > agen + suffix "on" for verbs
                >
                > The same situation appears in the words as Latin "semi",
                > Greek "hemis" and Alb. "gjymë(sã)" and Rom. "jumã(tate)"
                but in
                this
                > case there appear we have to deal with an short "o" since it
                > became "u" in Albanian as well, thus:
                > *seom- > s^om- > jum- in Rom
                > *seom- > s^om- > gjym-
                >
                > I assume the change s^> gj ( Rom. j) was probale since this is to
                see
                > in Sarpe = gjarpë or Sase = gjash(te) as well.
                >
                > The funny thing, we have on a side Latin and Greek with an "e"
                > (semis, hemis) and on another side Alb. and Rom. with "u".
                > I don't sustain my derivation is the best and I will love to see
                some
                > other opinion as well.
                >
                > Latin influence in both of these words (ajuna/agenon, gyumë/juma)
                are
                > absolutely excluded and in the religious therminology of Romanian,
                > the ecclesiast Latin therms are simply unknown so far I am
                informed.
                >
                > Alex
                *********
                I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and perhaps
                Fr. 'jeuner').
                In my previous posting, I'd missed Lewis and Short's
                "jejunus , a, um, adj. [kindr. to Sanscr. yam, refrenare,
                cohibere; intens. yanyam, Bopp. Gloss. p. 276, a] , fasting, hungry,
                abstinent, not partaking of food."
                Bopp is really going back to the pioneer days, and this probably
                shouldn't be taken too seriously, but there it is.
                Dan
              • m_iacomi
                ... The obvious phenomenon of Latin age is the tendency of eliminating the first syllable (not preserved in Romances) and using *juna:re in conjunction with
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" wrote:

                  > I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                  > not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and
                  > perhaps Fr. 'jeuner').

                  The obvious phenomenon of Latin age is the tendency of eliminating
                  the first syllable (not preserved in Romances) and using "*juna:re"
                  in conjunction with prepositions ("ad", supported by Rom., Sp. &
                  Fr. usual form "à jeun", and "de", supported by It. & Cat. forms).
                  Prefixation is so usual that most dictionnaries don't even insert
                  a footnote about required VL forms.

                  Regards,
                  Marius Iacomi
                • Abdullah Konushevci
                  ... ************* The most oldest form in Alb. is to fast , probably prefixed form of . is characteristic for South dialect
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" wrote:
                    >
                    > > I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                    > > not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and
                    > > perhaps Fr. 'jeuner').
                    >
                    > The obvious phenomenon of Latin age is the tendency of eliminating
                    > the first syllable (not preserved in Romances) and using "*juna:re"
                    > in conjunction with prepositions ("ad", supported by Rom., Sp. &
                    > Fr. usual form "à jeun", and "de", supported by It. & Cat. forms).
                    > Prefixation is so usual that most dictionnaries don't even insert
                    > a footnote about required VL forms.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Marius Iacom
                    *************
                    The most oldest form in Alb. is <ngjinoj> 'to fast', probably
                    prefixed form of <en-gjinoj>. <agjëroj> is characteristic for South
                    dialect and by all means most resent than <ngjinoj>.

                    Konushevci
                  • altamix
                    ... hungry, ... probably ... soso, if not jejunus, then *adjunus since Spanish form will put all the ecuation in a VLat which is not excluded at all and
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
                      > I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                      > not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and
                      > perhaps
                      > Fr. 'jeuner').
                      > In my previous posting, I'd missed Lewis and Short's
                      > "jejunus , a, um, adj. [kindr. to Sanscr. yam, refrenare,
                      > cohibere; intens. yanyam, Bopp. Gloss. p. 276, a] , fasting,
                      hungry,
                      > abstinent, not partaking of food."
                      > Bopp is really going back to the pioneer days, and this
                      probably
                      > shouldn't be taken too seriously, but there it is.
                      > Dan


                      soso, if not jejunus, then *adjunus since Spanish form will put all
                      the ecuation in a VLat which is not excluded at all and Albanian form
                      just will confirme it:-))

                      BTW, I will never understand why the reconstructed forms appears to
                      be just Latin "ad" + word which begins with a consonant but never an
                      word which begin with an Latin "ad" + word where the initial sound is
                      a vowel. If I will suggest that in a such word the elidation of "d"
                      or "c" (< ac) won't be explanable at all anymore it shouldbe
                      considerate as blasphemy:-)
                      Thus the most loved reconstructions are with "adC-" and "exC-" but
                      never "adV-" or "exV-", at least not in Romanian.

                      Just an observation so far:-)


                      Alex
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