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Re: Yugoslawia

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  • Abdullah Konushevci
    ... ************ It seems I didn t think enough. Pokorny s dawn could easy be old form of present participle passive of the verb to dawn ,
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
      > On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 12:35:28 +0000, Abdullah Konushevci
      > <a_konushevci@y...> wrote:
      >
      > >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...>
      wrote:
      > >> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:56:55 +0000, "Daniel J. Milton"
      > >> <dmilt1896@a...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Slavic *jugU or *ugU must come from *augos or *eugos/*ougos.
      > >> The only possible connection seems to be *h2aug- in Greek
      > >> augé: "sunshine"; Alb. agój "to dawn", agume "morning".
      > >>
      > >************
      > >Probably a typo <agume> 'morning'
      >
      > <Agume> is given by Pokorny ("alb. agój 'tage', agume
      > 'Morgenröte, Morgen' (s. Persson Beitr. 369)").
      >
      > EIEC gives: "Alb. agon 'dawns', agim 'dawn, morning'."
      >
      > Chernyx gives "alb. agój 'rassvetat', brezzhit'', bezl. agón
      > 'svetaet', agím m. 'rassvet, utrennaja zarja'".
      >
      > Strangely enough, the simplex Alb. <ag> "dawn" is not given
      > in either three.
      >
      >
      > =======================
      > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
      > mcv@w...
      ************
      It seems I didn't think enough. Pokorny's <agume> 'dawn' could easy
      be old form of present participle passive of the verb <agoj> 'to
      dawn', that is <aguem> and contracted form <agum>, whence <agume>.
      Suffix -im became very late productive, so, in the past, one could
      find: <e këndueme> 'singing, reader' instead of <këndim> 'id.'.

      Konushevci
    • Daniel J. Milton
      ... neologism ... etimology ... ******* Alex, do your searching before you post your free-association musings. From on-line Merriam-Webster: ag·o·ny
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
        >
        > Mmmm..hmm.. agoj < *agonj < *agonyos ? That remember me of
        neologism
        > agony in English and the meaning by now appears very interesting.
        > I would like to search in the evening about the ultimately
        etimology
        > of "agony", maybe one finds something out.
        >
        > Alex
        *******
        Alex, do your searching before you post your free-association
        musings.
        From on-line Merriam-Webster:
        " ag·o·ny
        Etymology: Middle English agonie, from Late Latin agonia, from Greek
        agOnia struggle, anguish, from agOn gathering, contest for a prize,
        from agein to lead, celebrate" (< *ag^-)
        Dan
      • altamix
        ... Greek ... First, thank you for the info Daniel. Second, I don t know if this is indeed just a free association.Rom. a ajuna , Alb. agjërim (
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
          wrote:
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Mmmm..hmm.. agoj < *agonj < *agonyos ? That remember me of
          > neologism
          > > agony in English and the meaning by now appears very interesting.
          > > I would like to search in the evening about the ultimately
          > etimology
          > > of "agony", maybe one finds something out.
          > >
          > > Alex
          > *******
          > Alex, do your searching before you post your free-association
          > musings.
          > From on-line Merriam-Webster:
          > " ag·o·ny
          > Etymology: Middle English agonie, from Late Latin agonia, from
          Greek
          > agOnia struggle, anguish, from agOn gathering, contest for a prize,
          > from agein to lead, celebrate" (< *ag^-)
          > Dan

          First, thank you for the info Daniel.
          Second, I don't know if this is indeed just a free
          association.Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
          fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
          very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?

          But we ar off topic by now regarding "jug" as "south". It appears the
          Alb. "jug" and Slavic *jug-" are not related to these roots from the
          point of view of the semantic aspect.

          Alex
        • Daniel J. Milton
          ... Rom. a ajuna , Alb. agjërim ( *agenim(?)) means to ... ******** No. The obvious source of Rom. ajuna is Latin jejunus fasting (non-religious in
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
            Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
            > fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
            > very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
            ********
            No.
            The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
            (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin). This
            etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful etymology"
            for the Latin.
            'Jejunus' is a peculiar-looking word. Any suggestions here?
            Dan
          • altamix
            ... etymology ... Your obvious is far away from being obvious here. The Latin form does not explain Romanian and Albanian forms which begin both with a .
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
              wrote:
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
              > Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
              > > fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
              > > very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
              > ********
              > No.
              > The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
              > (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin).
              > This
              > etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful
              etymology"
              > for the Latin.
              > 'Jejunus' is a peculiar-looking word. Any suggestions here?
              > Dan

              Your "obvious" is far away from being obvious here. The Latin form
              does not explain Romanian and Albanian forms which begin both
              with "a".
              This is why DEX consider a potentialy *adjunare for Romanian, leting
              the Albanian "e" unexplained "ageron" with this form. How would you
              like to get an "a" from Latin "je" in Alb. and Rom?
              jejunus > ajun or jejunus > *agenon > ageron in Albanian?

              I suspect here we have to deal with a form as *ageo:n- which will
              explain Rom. "u" and Alb. "e".

              For Rom: ageo:n > ag^on > ajun
              For Alb: ageo:n > ageen > agen + suffix "on" for verbs

              The same situation appears in the words as Latin "semi",
              Greek "hemis" and Alb. "gjymë(sã)" and Rom. "jumã(tate)" but in this
              case there appear we have to deal with an short "o" since it
              became "u" in Albanian as well, thus:
              *seom- > s^om- > jum- in Rom
              *seom- > s^om- > gjym-

              I assume the change s^> gj ( Rom. j) was probale since this is to see
              in Sarpe = gjarpë or Sase = gjash(te) as well.

              The funny thing, we have on a side Latin and Greek with an "e"
              (semis, hemis) and on another side Alb. and Rom. with "u".
              I don't sustain my derivation is the best and I will love to see some
              other opinion as well.

              Latin influence in both of these words (ajuna/agenon, gyumë/juma)are
              absolutely excluded and in the religious therminology of Romanian,
              the ecclesiast Latin therms are simply unknown so far I am informed.

              Alex
            • m_iacomi
              ... Also source for Fr. (à) jeun , It. digiuno , Cat. dejuni , etc. Regards, Marius Iacomi
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" wrote:

                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" wrote:
                >> Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
                >> fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are too
                >> very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
                > ********
                > No.
                > The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
                > (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin). This
                > etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful etymology"
                > for the Latin.

                Also source for Fr. "(à) jeun", It. "digiuno", Cat. "dejuni", etc.

                Regards,
                Marius Iacomi
              • Daniel J. Milton
                ... ... too ... Latin jejunus fasting ... leting ... you ... but in this ... see ... some ... are ... informed. ... ********* I m happy
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton"
                  <dmilt1896@a...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@t...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Rom. "a ajuna", Alb. "agjërim" ( *agenim(?)) means "to
                  > > > fast" which is in fact a religious celebration. The forms are
                  too
                  > > > very appropiate to Greek "agein", don't you find?
                  > > ********
                  > > No.
                  > > The obvious source of Rom. 'ajuna' is
                  Latin 'jejunus' "fasting"
                  > > (non-religious in classical Latin, religious in eccl. Latin).
                  > > This
                  > > etymology is confirmed by Buck, who also writes "doubtful
                  > etymology"
                  > > for the Latin.
                  > > 'Jejunus' is a peculiar-looking word. Any suggestions here?
                  > > Dan
                  >
                  > Your "obvious" is far away from being obvious here. The Latin form
                  > does not explain Romanian and Albanian forms which begin both
                  > with "a".
                  > This is why DEX consider a potentialy *adjunare for Romanian,
                  leting
                  > the Albanian "e" unexplained "ageron" with this form. How would
                  you
                  > like to get an "a" from Latin "je" in Alb. and Rom?
                  > jejunus > ajun or jejunus > *agenon > ageron in Albanian?
                  >
                  > I suspect here we have to deal with a form as *ageo:n- which will
                  > explain Rom. "u" and Alb. "e".
                  >
                  > For Rom: ageo:n > ag^on > ajun
                  > For Alb: ageo:n > ageen > agen + suffix "on" for verbs
                  >
                  > The same situation appears in the words as Latin "semi",
                  > Greek "hemis" and Alb. "gjymë(sã)" and Rom. "jumã(tate)"
                  but in
                  this
                  > case there appear we have to deal with an short "o" since it
                  > became "u" in Albanian as well, thus:
                  > *seom- > s^om- > jum- in Rom
                  > *seom- > s^om- > gjym-
                  >
                  > I assume the change s^> gj ( Rom. j) was probale since this is to
                  see
                  > in Sarpe = gjarpë or Sase = gjash(te) as well.
                  >
                  > The funny thing, we have on a side Latin and Greek with an "e"
                  > (semis, hemis) and on another side Alb. and Rom. with "u".
                  > I don't sustain my derivation is the best and I will love to see
                  some
                  > other opinion as well.
                  >
                  > Latin influence in both of these words (ajuna/agenon, gyumë/juma)
                  are
                  > absolutely excluded and in the religious therminology of Romanian,
                  > the ecclesiast Latin therms are simply unknown so far I am
                  informed.
                  >
                  > Alex
                  *********
                  I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                  not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and perhaps
                  Fr. 'jeuner').
                  In my previous posting, I'd missed Lewis and Short's
                  "jejunus , a, um, adj. [kindr. to Sanscr. yam, refrenare,
                  cohibere; intens. yanyam, Bopp. Gloss. p. 276, a] , fasting, hungry,
                  abstinent, not partaking of food."
                  Bopp is really going back to the pioneer days, and this probably
                  shouldn't be taken too seriously, but there it is.
                  Dan
                • m_iacomi
                  ... The obvious phenomenon of Latin age is the tendency of eliminating the first syllable (not preserved in Romances) and using *juna:re in conjunction with
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" wrote:

                    > I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                    > not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and
                    > perhaps Fr. 'jeuner').

                    The obvious phenomenon of Latin age is the tendency of eliminating
                    the first syllable (not preserved in Romances) and using "*juna:re"
                    in conjunction with prepositions ("ad", supported by Rom., Sp. &
                    Fr. usual form "à jeun", and "de", supported by It. & Cat. forms).
                    Prefixation is so usual that most dictionnaries don't even insert
                    a footnote about required VL forms.

                    Regards,
                    Marius Iacomi
                  • Abdullah Konushevci
                    ... ************* The most oldest form in Alb. is to fast , probably prefixed form of . is characteristic for South dialect
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" wrote:
                      >
                      > > I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                      > > not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and
                      > > perhaps Fr. 'jeuner').
                      >
                      > The obvious phenomenon of Latin age is the tendency of eliminating
                      > the first syllable (not preserved in Romances) and using "*juna:re"
                      > in conjunction with prepositions ("ad", supported by Rom., Sp. &
                      > Fr. usual form "à jeun", and "de", supported by It. & Cat. forms).
                      > Prefixation is so usual that most dictionnaries don't even insert
                      > a footnote about required VL forms.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Marius Iacom
                      *************
                      The most oldest form in Alb. is <ngjinoj> 'to fast', probably
                      prefixed form of <en-gjinoj>. <agjëroj> is characteristic for South
                      dialect and by all means most resent than <ngjinoj>.

                      Konushevci
                    • altamix
                      ... hungry, ... probably ... soso, if not jejunus, then *adjunus since Spanish form will put all the ecuation in a VLat which is not excluded at all and
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 2, 2004
                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
                        > I'm happy with DEX. L. *adjunare may have a asterisk, but it's
                        > not just ad hoc for Rom., but supported by Sp. 'ayunar' (and
                        > perhaps
                        > Fr. 'jeuner').
                        > In my previous posting, I'd missed Lewis and Short's
                        > "jejunus , a, um, adj. [kindr. to Sanscr. yam, refrenare,
                        > cohibere; intens. yanyam, Bopp. Gloss. p. 276, a] , fasting,
                        hungry,
                        > abstinent, not partaking of food."
                        > Bopp is really going back to the pioneer days, and this
                        probably
                        > shouldn't be taken too seriously, but there it is.
                        > Dan


                        soso, if not jejunus, then *adjunus since Spanish form will put all
                        the ecuation in a VLat which is not excluded at all and Albanian form
                        just will confirme it:-))

                        BTW, I will never understand why the reconstructed forms appears to
                        be just Latin "ad" + word which begins with a consonant but never an
                        word which begin with an Latin "ad" + word where the initial sound is
                        a vowel. If I will suggest that in a such word the elidation of "d"
                        or "c" (< ac) won't be explanable at all anymore it shouldbe
                        considerate as blasphemy:-)
                        Thus the most loved reconstructions are with "adC-" and "exC-" but
                        never "adV-" or "exV-", at least not in Romanian.

                        Just an observation so far:-)


                        Alex
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