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Re: ...Crãciun...

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  • g
    ... i.e. [tja, tje, tjo, tju] The transformation German (in the Köln-Bonn-Aachen-Düsseldorf area as well) is similar: through
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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      On Fri, Jan 2, 2004, at 06:56 PM, m_iacomi wrote:

      > There is "[t] + [y]"

      i.e. [tja, tje, tjo, tju]

      The transformation <a Dieu> > German <tschüs>
      (in the Köln-Bonn-Aachen-Düsseldorf area <tschöö>
      as well) is similar: through <adjes & adjüs>
      [-dj- in these is phonetically almost as [g^]
      in <aghiasmã> in Transylvanian Romanian]

      Palatalized vs. [tS and dZ] can also be heard in
      modern Romanian esp. when comparing Transylvanian
      and Moldavian subdialects with Banat, Mehedintzi and
      Bistritza-Nasaud ones (the B-N area is actually in
      NE Transylvania).

      g
    • alex
      m_iacomi wrote: . ... wherefrom do you want to have /t /+ /y/ when short /i/ /e/ in PBR? Alex
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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        m_iacomi wrote:
        .
        >
        > Bad reasoning. Forget about "=". There is "[t] + [y]". No
        > "[t] + [e]". Full stop.
        >
        > Marius Iacomi

        wherefrom do you want to have /t /+ /y/ when short /i/ > /e/ in PBR?

        Alex
      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        ... Not again, Alex. You ve asked this question before. Check the archives if you don t remember the answer. Piotr
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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          02-01-04 19:28, alex wrote:

          > wherefrom do you want to have /t /+ /y/ when short /i/ > /e/ in PBR?

          Not again, Alex. You've asked this question before. Check the archives
          if you don't remember the answer.

          Piotr
        • alex
          ... I indeed do not remember. I remember about Miguels opinion tha the group ti should have had a debile comportment in Romance and not more as that. Mr
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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            Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
            > 02-01-04 19:28, alex wrote:
            >
            >> wherefrom do you want to have /t /+ /y/ when short /i/ > /e/ in PBR?
            >
            > Not again, Alex. You've asked this question before. Check the archives
            > if you don't remember the answer.
            >
            > Piotr

            I indeed do not remember. I remember about Miguels opinion tha the group
            "ti" should have had a "debile" comportment in Romance and not more as
            that.
            Mr Iacomi will come probably with Rosetti's mention that
            "postconsonantic short /i/ when followed by /a,o,u/ becomes "y" .For
            this affirmation Rosetti shows some _latin examples_ (not example from
            Romance) as follow:
            balteus not baltius, brattea non brattia, calceus non calcius, cavea non
            cavia, palearium not paliarium, solea not soliatinea non tinia, vinea
            non vinia ( examples from Appendix Probi).
            more, he shows some regresions as lilium non lileum, alium not aleum,
            ostium not osteum ( examples from Appendix Probi too).

            I assume on the bassis of such "failures" in the folks's mouth, one can
            easy postulate that /ti/ > /ti/ and does not need anything more to
            explain. Eventualy the only add should be that there is not the latin
            suffix "-tio:nem" but the same bad form in VLat which became /-tionem/
            and there is the requested /y/, not in Rom. where there is imposible the
            /y/ from /e/ and the ty > Ti and not "c^".

            Alex
          • Richard Wordingham
            ... PBR? ... archives ... group ... more as ... The basic consonant rule is given in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18412 . It was one of the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@t...> wrote:
              > Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
              > > 02-01-04 19:28, alex wrote:
              > >
              > >> wherefrom do you want to have /t /+ /y/ when short /i/ > /e/ in
              PBR?
              > >
              > > Not again, Alex. You've asked this question before. Check the
              archives
              > > if you don't remember the answer.
              > >
              > > Piotr
              >
              > I indeed do not remember. I remember about Miguels opinion tha the
              group
              > "ti" should have had a "debile" comportment in Romance and not
              more as
              > that.

              The basic consonant rule is given in
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18412 . It was one
              of the rules described as 'early (largely shared with Italian)'. If
              you can't remember, you could always have a look in my 'toy', as you
              call it. I give the primary Cybalist sources in the comments in the
              rules.

              > Mr Iacomi will come probably with Rosetti's mention that
              > "postconsonantic short /i/ when followed by /a,o,u/
              becomes "y" .For
              > this affirmation Rosetti shows some _latin examples_ (not example
              from
              > Romance) as follow:
              > balteus not baltius, brattea non brattia, calceus non calcius,
              cavea non
              > cavia, palearium not paliarium, solea not soliatinea non tinia,
              vinea
              > non vinia ( examples from Appendix Probi).
              > more, he shows some regresions as lilium non lileum, alium not
              aleum,
              > ostium not osteum ( examples from Appendix Probi too).
              >
              > I assume on the bassis of such "failures" in the folks's mouth,
              one can
              > easy postulate that /ti/ > /ti/ and does not need anything more to
              > explain.

              What these examples show is that the difference between /e/ and /i/
              was small or non-existent in this context. It says nothing about
              its conversion to a semivowel.

              > Eventualy the only add should be that there is not the latin
              > suffix "-tio:nem" but the same bad form in VLat which became /-
              tionem/
              > and there is the requested /y/, not in Rom. where there is
              imposible the
              > /y/ from /e/ and the ty > Ti and not "c^".

              The point is that this unstressed pre-vocalic vowel became the semi-
              vowel. The same phenomenon has happened in English - _ocean_ has
              changed from 3 syllables (scan as though /&Usi:&n/ when reading
              Sheakespeare), but is now pronounced /&US&n/. There may have been a
              long period when the two forms, vowel and semivowel coexisted, or at
              least fashions swung. That is the case in present day English,
              though the case of English is complicated by universal literacy. In
              this context, there should not have been any unstressed /i:/ to
              contrast, for Classical Latin had shortened long vowels immediately
              preceding other vowels. In Romanian, the principle outcome was its
              merger with a preceding dental or palatal (formally velar) consonant.

              The pattern can be seen throughout Romance. Some of the words above
              have survived:

              _cavea_ > Fr. _cage_, Sp. _gavia_, It. _gabbia_. The initial
              consonants are all irregular, but are not unprecedented.

              _vinea_ > Fr. _vigne_, Sp. _viña_, It. _vigna_, Rom. _vie_.

              Romanian _vie_ is misleading - the 'e' derives from the 'a', not
              the 'e'.

              _li:lium_ > Fr. _lis_. I don't know if Italian _giglio_ is
              related. I suspect Romanian _lilie_ is a loan rather than an
              inherited form.

              _alium_ > Fr. _ail_, Sp. _ajo_, It. _aglio_.

              Richard.
            • tolgs001
              ... Is there any *lilie in Romanian? I only know of , i.e. [1 ]the lilac (Syringa) shrub & [2] the animal bat . The word with its both meanings
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                >I suspect Romanian _lilie_ is a loan rather than an
                >inherited form.

                Is there any *lilie in Romanian? I only know of <liliác>,
                i.e. [1 ]the "lilac" (Syringa) shrub & [2] the animal
                "bat". The word with its both meanings seemingly via
                Turkish and Neogreek (according to the dictionary).
                Also: I'm not aware of any borrowing from German based
                on <die Lilie> "lily" < Lat. <lilium, lilia.>

                >_alium_ > Fr. _ail_, Sp. _ajo_, It. _aglio_.

                Romanian ai [aj] which is the older and pan-Romanian
                word: <usturoi> (a deverbal "adjectivoid" [*] < <a usturá,
                usturare, usturat, ~&tor> "sharp, burning") is prevalent
                in the standard language & in SE & eastern subdialects.
                <ai> continues to be used regionally in central, western
                and N-W subdialects.

                OTOH, a sauce based on garlic, <mujdei> [muZdéj] (regionally
                AKA <mojdei>) is a pan-Romanian shortening of <must de ai>.
                However, many (perhaps most) native-speakers don't realize
                that <mujdei> = <must-de-ai>.

                >Richard.

                George
                _______________
                [*] unfortunately, the RO-RO dictionary doesn't
                point out that <usturoi> has the initial adjectival
                meaning, e.g. in the context "this is sharp" (fem.
                <usturoaie>); perhaps bec. of the paradox that
                in the areas that have heavily influenced the
                standard language it is barely used as such, whereas
                just in the areas where <ai> hasn't been forgotten,
                <usturoi> still bears the initial meaning, so that
                the sentence <Aiul e usturoi> has a double meaning
                (the additional being "The garlic is sharp"), while,
                say, in Bucharest it'll be only this one: "<Ai> is
                garlic."

                --
                <<ith a garlic aroma that could level Tacoma>> (Fr. Zappa)
              • Richard Wordingham
                ... I tried the on-line dictionary at http://www.ectaco.com/ to look for the Romanian cognates. All it gave for _ai_ was you ve . The only translation it
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tolgs001" <george.st@g...> wrote:
                  > >I suspect Romanian _lilie_ is a loan rather than an
                  > >inherited form.
                  >
                  > Is there any *lilie in Romanian? I only know of <liliác>,
                  > i.e. [1 ]the "lilac" (Syringa) shrub & [2] the animal
                  > "bat". The word with its both meanings seemingly via
                  > Turkish and Neogreek (according to the dictionary).
                  > Also: I'm not aware of any borrowing from German based
                  > on <die Lilie> "lily" < Lat. <lilium, lilia.>
                  >
                  > >_alium_ > Fr. _ail_, Sp. _ajo_, It. _aglio_.
                  >
                  > Romanian ai [aj] which is the older and pan-Romanian
                  > word: <usturoi> (a deverbal "adjectivoid" [*] < <a usturá,
                  > usturare, usturat, ~&tor> "sharp, burning") is prevalent
                  > in the standard language & in SE & eastern subdialects.
                  > <ai> continues to be used regionally in central, western
                  > and N-W subdialects.

                  I tried the on-line dictionary at http://www.ectaco.com/ to look for
                  the Romanian cognates. All it gave for _ai_ was 'you've'. The only
                  translation it gives for _lilie_ is 'lily'. Does anyone know a
                  better on-line Romanian-English dictionary?

                  Richard.
                • g
                  ... http://dex.francu.com/search.php : http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=ai&source= _______________________________________________ (Anyone can contribute
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                    >I tried the on-line dictionary at http://www.ectaco.com/ to look for
                    >the Romanian cognates. All it gave for _ai_ was 'you've'. The only
                    >translation it gives for _lilie_ is 'lily'. Does anyone know a
                    >better on-line Romanian-English dictionary?
                    >
                    >Richard.

                    http://dex.francu.com/search.php

                    <ai>: http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=ai&source=

                    _______________________________________________

                    (Anyone can contribute to enrich this online monolingual
                    dictionary.)(Still far from being finished.)

                    <<Starea curentã:
                    DEX online a învãþat 26579 cuvinte, din care 724 în ultima lunã.
                    Secþiuni complete (DEX '98): A-AL, AU-AZ, Ã, Â, B, C-CH, D-DÃ,
                    G, H, I, Î, J, K, M-MÃ, Q, Þ, U, W, X, Y, Z>>

                    George
                  • Richard Wordingham
                    ... for ... only ... Thanks, but how do I look up words with non-ASCII characters? Cut and paste doesn t work, not does dropping the accents. Richard.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                      .0--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, g <george.st@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >I tried the on-line dictionary at http://www.ectaco.com/ to look
                      for
                      > >the Romanian cognates. All it gave for _ai_ was 'you've'. The
                      only
                      > >translation it gives for _lilie_ is 'lily'. Does anyone know a
                      > >better on-line Romanian-English dictionary?
                      > >
                      > >Richard.
                      >
                      > http://dex.francu.com/search.php
                      >
                      > <ai>: http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=ai&source=

                      Thanks, but how do I look up words with non-ASCII characters? Cut
                      and paste doesn't work, not does dropping the accents.

                      Richard.
                    • Harald Hammarstrom
                      Hi! I hear an urban legend that hooray , according to English etym. dictionaries from German hurra , is from an Aramaic or Hebrew exclamation meaning
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                        Hi!
                        I hear an urban legend that 'hooray', according to English etym.
                        dictionaries from German 'hurra', is from an Aramaic or Hebrew
                        exclamation meaning 'kill/slughter' or the like and refers to some
                        event involving John the Baptist. I don't have access to a German
                        (or Swedish hononym which presumably has the same source) that contains
                        the entry and I can't verify is in an Aramaic or Hebrew dictionary.
                        Anyone know the status?
                        thanks,
                        Harald
                      • tolgs001
                        ... hot would actually have fit in this context. George
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                          >"sharp"

                          "hot" would actually have fit in this
                          context.

                          George
                        • tolgs001
                          ... Cut & Paste works OK, although I checked this via Mozilla (1.5) under MacOS X (10.2.x). I expect it to work even better under Windozes. OTOH, let s have a
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                            >Thanks, but how do I look up words with non-ASCII characters?
                            >Cut and paste doesn't work, not does dropping the accents.
                            >
                            >Richard.

                            Cut & Paste works OK, although I checked this via
                            Mozilla (1.5) under MacOS X (10.2.x). I expect it
                            to work even better under Windozes.

                            OTOH, let's have a look at the <<Ajutor>> ("help")
                            text:

                            <<Puteti face cãutãri cu expresii regulate. Caracterul ? poate
                            inlocui orice literã, iar caracterul * poate inlocui orice $ir
                            de litere (inclusiv $irul vid). De exemplu, d*r cautã toate
                            cuvintele care incep cu D $i se terminã cu R.

                            Nu folositi decât cele 26 litere din alfabetul latin. Orice
                            cifre, spatzii, simboluri sau diacritice (de exemplu ã, î) vor
                            fi ignorate, cu exceptia lui * $i ? discutate mai sus.>>

                            ---> So, RegEx searches are possible. ? can stay for any font, * for
                            any fonts string. E.g., by inserting d*r you'll get all words
                            starting with D and ending with R.

                            Only use the Latin alphab. characters. Don't use figures, blanks,
                            symbols and diacriticals (such as ă, î) that the dictionary
                            will ignore. Exceptions: the aforementioned ? and * <---

                            George
                          • Brian M. Scott
                            At 9:36:27 AM on Saturday, January 3, 2004, Harald ... That s the etymology given by Merriam-Webster (on-line), but the American Heritage Dictionary makes
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 3, 2004
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                              At 9:36:27 AM on Saturday, January 3, 2004, Harald
                              Hammarstrom wrote:

                              > Hi!
                              > I hear an urban legend that 'hooray', according to English
                              > etym. dictionaries from German 'hurra',

                              That's the etymology given by Merriam-Webster (on-line), but
                              the American Heritage Dictionary makes <hooray> a variant of
                              <hurrah>, itself a variant of <huzzah>. This last is said
                              to be perhaps a variant of ME <hisse> 'heave!', which is
                              possibly from MDu <hissen> 'to haul'.

                              > is from an Aramaic or Hebrew exclamation meaning
                              > 'kill/slughter' or the like and refers to some event
                              > involving John the Baptist. I don't have access to a
                              > German (or Swedish hononym which presumably has the same
                              > source) that contains the entry and I can't verify is in
                              > an Aramaic or Hebrew dictionary. Anyone know the status?
                              > thanks, Harald

                              SAOB on-line says:

                              ETYMOLOGI: [jfr d. hurra, holl. hoera, eng. o. t. hurruh;
                              trol. etymologiskt samhörigt med HURRA, v.1 Ordet synes
                              hava inkommit i sv. från engelskt sjömansspråk ss. jubel-
                              o. hyllningsrop; dess senare militära anv. torde bero på
                              invärkan (under Napoleonskrigen) av det ryska stridsropet
                              urá, som sannol. är av turkotatariskt urspr.

                              For the verb mentioned above:

                              ETYMOLOGI: [jfr sv. dial. hurra, snurra, vina, d. hurre,
                              snurra, surra, nor. hurra, virvla, dundra, shetl. hurr,
                              snurra, virvla, surra, spinna (om katt), eng. (dial.)
                              hurr, surra, brumma, morra (om hund), mht. o. t. hurren,
                              vara i hastig rörelse; urspr. ljudhärmande;

                              Brian
                            • Harald Hammarstrom
                              thanks Brian! /Harald
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 7, 2004
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                                thanks Brian!
                                /Harald


                                On Sat, 3 Jan 2004, Brian M. Scott wrote:

                                > At 9:36:27 AM on Saturday, January 3, 2004, Harald
                                > Hammarstrom wrote:
                                >
                                > > Hi!
                                > > I hear an urban legend that 'hooray', according to English
                                > > etym. dictionaries from German 'hurra',
                                >
                                > That's the etymology given by Merriam-Webster (on-line), but
                                > the American Heritage Dictionary makes <hooray> a variant of
                                > <hurrah>, itself a variant of <huzzah>. This last is said
                                > to be perhaps a variant of ME <hisse> 'heave!', which is
                                > possibly from MDu <hissen> 'to haul'.
                                >
                                > > is from an Aramaic or Hebrew exclamation meaning
                                > > 'kill/slughter' or the like and refers to some event
                                > > involving John the Baptist. I don't have access to a
                                > > German (or Swedish hononym which presumably has the same
                                > > source) that contains the entry and I can't verify is in
                                > > an Aramaic or Hebrew dictionary. Anyone know the status?
                                > > thanks, Harald
                                >
                                > SAOB on-line says:
                                >
                                > ETYMOLOGI: [jfr d. hurra, holl. hoera, eng. o. t. hurruh;
                                > trol. etymologiskt samhörigt med HURRA, v.1 Ordet synes
                                > hava inkommit i sv. från engelskt sjömansspråk ss. jubel-
                                > o. hyllningsrop; dess senare militära anv. torde bero på
                                > invärkan (under Napoleonskrigen) av det ryska stridsropet
                                > urá, som sannol. är av turkotatariskt urspr.
                                >
                                > For the verb mentioned above:
                                >
                                > ETYMOLOGI: [jfr sv. dial. hurra, snurra, vina, d. hurre,
                                > snurra, surra, nor. hurra, virvla, dundra, shetl. hurr,
                                > snurra, virvla, surra, spinna (om katt), eng. (dial.)
                                > hurr, surra, brumma, morra (om hund), mht. o. t. hurren,
                                > vara i hastig rörelse; urspr. ljudhärmande;
                                >
                                > Brian
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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