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Re: [tied] Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic

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  • Joao
    Are some of the putative Pre-Germanic substrata in Proto-Germianic shared with Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic or Proto-Celtic? Joao SL ... From: Alexander
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 2, 2004
      Are some of the putative "Pre-Germanic" substrata in Proto-Germianic shared with Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic or Proto-Celtic?
       
      Joao SL
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 3:46 PM
      Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic

      Yes, these loans are recent - only in the end of the 1st millennium first
      Slavic groups appeared in the Beloozero region. By the way this region is
      traditionally associated with Ves' from Letopis' (Russian Chronicles) and
      later with well known Vepses, i.e. with Finno-Baltic, not Saamic people. In
      other words Slavs found there only remainders of old Saamic population which
      was intensively substituted with new Finno-Baltic tribes.
      The Beloe lake is situated between Upper Volga and the Onega lake, about a
      thousand km away from regions where Saami live now.
      The next region with loanwords from Saamic is the Onega lake.
      Further to the North one finds Saamic graves of 12-15 centuries on the
      Solovetskiye islands in the White sea.

      Thus we can trace the way of Saami:
      [presumably Volga region, where ALL other branches of the Finnic languages -
      Finno-Permic, Volga-Finnic and Finno-Baltic (Ves') - were presented] > the
      Beloe lake > the Onega lake > Northern Karelia > Lapland

      As Saami came to Lapland from the South-East, they just could not come
      simultaneously from the South-West (South  Scandinavia). That's why I'm not
      surprised that no Saamic loanwords are found in Proto-Germanic.

      Alexander


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
      To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic


      > 02-01-04 13:58, Alexander Stolbov wrote:
      >
      > > On the other hand, Saamic loanwords are found among Russian dialectal
      words
      > > in the region of the Beloe lake (the White lake) and the eastern shore
      of
      > > the Onega lake.
      >
      > These, however are recent loans into the local Slavic dialects. The
      > original question was about loans from Sámi or Finnic into
      > Proto-Germanic, not into the modern Germanic languages (so <sauna> and
      > <kantele> don't count either :-))
      >
      > Piotr




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    • tgpedersen
      ... Germianic shared with Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic or Proto-Celtic? ... Peter Schrijver identified three substrate languages appearing in Celtic, Germanic,
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 3, 2004
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao" <josimo70@y...> wrote:
        > Are some of the putative "Pre-Germanic" substrata in Proto-
        Germianic shared with Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic or Proto-Celtic?
        >

        Peter Schrijver identified three substrate languages appearing in
        Celtic, Germanic, occasionally Greek, and Finnic.
        Check the discussions beginning at

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/25720

        and

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/24881
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/24768
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21608
        (I just learned that just prior to the Thuringian or Swebian
        expansion a Przework groups end up in the Wetterau (near Frankfurt?)
        close to the Rhine; unlike the Swebians, these were absorbed by the
        local culture.)
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/22134
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/22134
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21865
        etc


        for some examples from them; unfortunately I have returned the book
        to the library.

        Torsten
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