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Re: [tied] Brugmann's Law

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  • Piotr Gasiorowski
    ... I think we should restrict ourselves, in the first place, to words meaning dew, moisture or something not very different. Pokorny is excessively
    Message 1 of 260 , Sep 30, 2003
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      30-09-03 18:30, Miguel Carrasquer wrote:

      > What can we make of all of this?

      I think we should restrict ourselves, in the first place, to words
      meaning 'dew, moisture' or something not very different. Pokorny is
      excessively inclusive here. We should therefore begin with Lat.
      ro:s/ro:ris (m.), Balto-Slavic *rasa:, Old Indic rása- (m.) and rasá:-,
      the Indo-Iranian hydronym *rasa:-, leaving less certain material aside.
      A connection with *h1er-s- 'flow, run' is possible but somewhat
      speculative, whereas words meaning 'hate, anger' etc. had better be
      considered separately.

      > Some forms present rather clear evidence for a laryngeal [specifically,
      > *h2] in the root. We have *(h1)ró(:)h2s- (Latin ro:s, Alb. resh, Grk.
      > ero:e:), *(h1)ré:h2s- (Gmc. re:s > ra:s), *(h1)r&2s- (Grk. erao:, Gmc.
      > ras). The zero-grade form looks problematical (why *r&s- instead of
      > *r.:s-?), which may or may not be related to the question of whether the
      > root began with *r- or with *h1r-. Even if a zero grade *r&s- > *ras-
      > could explain Balto-Slavic *rasa:, that option is not available, I think,
      > for Sanskrit rasá:, rásas, because *&(1/2/3) in principle should have given
      > /i/ in Indo-Iranian (and *r.:s- > i:rs.- as in i:rs.yati).


      > That would seem to leave metathesis (*roh2sah2 > *rosh2ah) as the only
      > possible, but unsatisfactory, explanation of the Sanskrit forms. Any
      > better suggestions?

      If this were indeed the only possible explanation, we'd have to treat it
      as satisfactory, but I can see other possibilities. The Latin noun is a
      consonantal stem, so the quantity surely requires no laryngeal
      explanation. All one needs is length generalised from the original
      nom.sg., as normally in Latin (<auro:ra>, <cruo:ris>, etc.). Perhaps
      <ro:s> is an old collective ~ mass noun related to *h1er-s-, which would
      allow us to posit an original paradigm like *h1ro:s, acc. *h1ros-m.,
      gen. *h1rés-(e)s (or the like).

      Now, Sanskrit has no Brugmannian length in nouns like <dáma-> 'house,
      home' and <mára-> 'death', where other branches point to *o. An
      otherwise invisible laryngeal suffix may often be the reason, as it
      certainly is in cases where the laryngeal manifests itself in some other
      way, cf. <rátha-> 'wagon, chariot' < *rót-h2-o-. This makes the analysis
      of <rása-> 'juice, liquid' as *h1rós-h2-o- a not unjustifiable
      possibility. At the very least, what works for <dáma-> ought to work for
      <rása-> as well. I'm not sure about the best derivation of <rasá:>
      'moisture'. It must be the same thing as BSl. *rasa:, so anything like
      *h1res-áh2 is ruled out. *h1ros-h2-áh2 looks cumbersome but may be the
      right solution (related to *h1ros-h2-o- like Lat. rota to Skt. rátha-?).

    • fournet.arnaud
      Moderator s notice: I am passing this message (though with mixed feelings), but I have to remind the discussants, _especially_ Patrick in this case, that
      Message 260 of 260 , Jan 22, 2008
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        This whole discussion is stinking an awful lot.
        Better be withdrawn.
        Normal human beings do not care about your *American*
        obsession about *black/white/other* purported **races**.
        Your **American** schizophrenic obsession about
        *sex* activity/desire* which you pathetically *need*
        to thrust on *other* people : I mean **French**.
        Please stop spreading *your* own *diseases*
        on the rest on mankind.
        You have already lost **moral** leadership.
        And it is no wonder why.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:40 AM
        Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re: [tied] Re: bitch

        Did I say "inferior"?
        I simply stated statistics. It is obvious that I should have chosen some other unpleasant truth.
        I withdraw from this discussion.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [tied] Re: bitch

        I teach at a Historically Black College/University and
        I find no difference between results of students of
        any color I've ever taught at any university. I have
        plenty of Black students, as well as mixed students
        and White, etc., from all backgrounds who are
        brilliant --no less or more as a percentage. To
        suggest that any ethnic group is inferior is
        suggestive of mental problems

        --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com> wrote:

        > Another unpleasant fact: there are very few black
        > people' in the US.
        > Almost all so-called blacks (those not recently
        > immigrated from overseas) have varying percentages
        > of Caucasian genes; the technical term for this is
        > mulatto. More accurate than "black is beautiful"
        > would be "brown is beautiful".
        > Do you want me to apologize for using accurate
        > terminology?
        > I have not told you anything about your daughter nor
        > will I.
        > Patrick
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Rick
        > McCallister< mailto:gabaroo6958@ yahoo.com>
        > To:
        cybalist@yahoogroup s.com<mailto:cybalist@yahoogroup s.com>
        > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:04 PM
        > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: bitch
        > "Mulatto" --I thought that word went out with
        > Octoroon
        > IQ tests in the US are class based
        > People of the same income and social class level
        > score
        > roughly the same regardless of color
        > My daughter, who is what you'd call an "octoroon"
        > or
        > some such term scored almost perfectly on the SAT.
        > But
        > from what you're telling me, I guess if she had a
        > bit
        > more of the white stuff, she would have aced it.
        > --- Patrick Ryan
        <proto-language@ msn.com<mailto:proto- language% 40msn.com> >
        > wrote:
        > > Max, I do not know what group to which you
        > belong
        > > nor do I care.
        > >
        > > Stating facts is not an expression of prejudice.
        > >
        > > If I say that American mulattoes consistently
        > score
        > > lower on IQ tests than white (yesterday and
        > today as
        > > well), or Asians, or Jews, is that prejudice? Or
        > is
        > > it simple reportage?
        > >
        > > I do not know from where you are writing but
        > many in
        > > the US are sick to death of Pollyanna's
        > prescribing
        > > the mention of unwelcome or inconvenient facts.
        > >
        > > Live in your spun-sugar castle if you wish but I
        > > prefer to savor the air of free speech so long
        > as
        > > the truth is its object.
        > >
        > >
        > > Patrick
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Max
        Dashu<mailto:maxdashu@lmi. net<mailto:maxdashu% 40lmi.net> >
        > > To:
        > >
        cybalist@yahoogroup s.com<mailto:cybalist% 40yahoogroups. com><mailto:cybalist@yahoogroup s.com<mailto:cybalist% 40yahoogroups. com>>
        > >
        > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:49 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: bitch
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > This seems sufficient comment on the linguistic
        > > methods being applied by this investigator. He
        > is
        > > not attacking any individual but entire groups
        > of
        > > people.
        > >
        > >
        > > Max
        > >
        > >
        > > Patrick Ryan wrote:
        > > As for a 'dyke', a lesbian playing the masculine
        > > role, 'goat' is appropriate since they
        > frequently do
        > > not bathe properly to imitate rough-and-ready
        > lower
        > > class men. There is nothing quite so unpleasant
        > as
        > > an unclean female's genital odor.
        > >
        > >
        > > and again:
        > > I have been interested in archaeology all of my
        > > life; and I am certain no credible evidence
        > exists
        > > for believing that women invented agriculture
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
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