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Re: [TIED] Itchy and Scratchy Stops

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  • Glen Gordon
    ... Soytainly. ... Watch it. I can t read your phonetic symbols. I get the jist though of what you re saying and I accept this idea (if any clear examples
    Message 1 of 23 , May 31, 2000
      Piotr:
      >Let's stick with *b as the time-honoured standard spelling

      Soytainly.

      >Actually, I think it might strengthen your case for a pre-PIE loss of
      > >*p��� if the gap could be shown to have undergone PARTIAL patching
      > >during the interval between that loss and the disintegration of PIE. This
      >is what should realistically be expected: not complete absence, [...]
      >like English /��/,

      Watch it. I can't read your phonetic symbols. I get the jist though of what
      you're saying and I accept this idea (if any clear examples should ever show
      up of *b).

      > And *(s)amlu is...? And what's this optional *s? Talking of
      > >illusions, "alim ~ samlu" doesn't look too good. With so much >metathetic
      >freedom you might just as well add lemon as a cognate ;) .

      Ah, Piotr. A skeptic to the end. That's why I love you. You're the perfect
      devil's advocate :) The *s- is seen in Anatolian languages and I presume
      that the phenomenon is related to the optional *s- found elsewhere in IE
      verbs, not to mention the Semitish loan *(s)teuros "bull" (Semitic *Tawru
      with initial dental fricative).

      Searching the LinguistList.org archives for the IE List, I got McCallister's
      etymology. On the Nostratic List was a post on this topic as well regarding
      G&I's proposal. Here's a synthesis of the viewpoints (including my own)
      presented so far between the Nostratic and IE lists:

      *(s)amlu- "apple, fruit"
      Germanic *ap(a)laz
      OE aeppel; OHG apful
      Celtic
      OIr uball, Welsh afal
      Italic
      Oscan Abella "apple town"
      Balto-Slavic
      O Sl abl�ko; OCS jabl'ko; Lith. �buolas
      Anatolian *sam(a)la-
      Hitt. samaluwanza "apple tree", Palaic samluwa-

      Miguel Carrasquer Vidal states March 8, 1999 on the LinguistList.org
      Nostratic List:

      "Gamqrelidze & Ivanov reconstruct PIE *s^amlu-, with *s^, which,
      according to them, gives zero outside of Anatolian (sakuwa ~
      *okw- "eye", sankui- ~ *onogh- "nail, claw")."

      Now, I'm not sure about this new *s^ phoneme that goes zero but if we
      reconstruct *(s)amlu-, at least, things are less speculative. I'd like to
      know where this word was borrowed from too. Semitish **Tamlu:, perhaps?
      Buddha only knows.

      - gLeN


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    • Dennis Poulter
      ... From: Glen Gordon To: Sent: Thursday, 01 June, 2000 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [TIED] Itchy and Scratchy Stops
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2000
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
        To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, 01 June, 2000 6:25 AM
        Subject: Re: [TIED] Itchy and Scratchy Stops


        >
        > Now, I'm not sure about this new *s^ phoneme that goes zero but if we
        > reconstruct *(s)amlu-, at least, things are less speculative. I'd like to
        > know where this word was borrowed from too. Semitish **Tamlu:, perhaps?
        > Buddha only knows.
        >
        > - gLeN
        >

        There is an Arabic /Tamr(un)/ (T=fricative "th") meaning "fruit".
        There is also /Tml/, but this means "to get drunk".

        Cheers
        Dennis





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      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        ... From: Dennis Poulter To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [TIED] Itchy and Scratchy Stops There is an Arabic
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 1, 2000
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:01 AM
          Subject: Re: [TIED] Itchy and Scratchy Stops


          There is an Arabic /Tamr(un)/ (T=fricative "th") meaning "fruit".
          There is also /Tml/, but this means "to get drunk".

          Cheers
          Dennis
           
          Perhaps originally "get drunk on cider" ;)
           
          Piotr

        • Tavi
          ... McCallister s ... regarding ... own) ... to ... perhaps? ... IMHO Hittite s^- in s^am(a)lu- apple would be a consequence of Fournet s Law. The Hittite
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 3, 2012
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:
            >
            > Searching the LinguistList.org archives for the IE List, I got McCallister's
            > etymology. On the Nostratic List was a post on this topic as well regarding
            > G&I's proposal. Here's a synthesis of the viewpoints (including my own)
            > presented so far between the Nostratic and IE lists:
            >
            > *(s)amlu- "apple, fruit"
            > Germanic *ap(a)laz
            > OE aeppel; OHG apful
            > Celtic
            > OIr uball, Welsh afal
            > Italic
            > Oscan Abella "apple town"
            > Balto-Slavic
            > O Sl ablûko; OCS jabl'ko; Lith. óbuolas
            > Anatolian *sam(a)la-
            > Hitt. samaluwanza "apple tree", Palaic samluwa-
            >
            > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal states March 8, 1999 on the LinguistList.org
            > Nostratic List:
            >
            > "Gamqrelidze & Ivanov reconstruct PIE *s^amlu-, with *s^, which,
            > according to them, gives zero outside of Anatolian (sakuwa ~
            > *okw- "eye", sankui- ~ *onogh- "nail, claw")."
            >
            > Now, I'm not sure about this new *s^ phoneme that goes zero but if we
            > reconstruct *(s)amlu-, at least, things are less speculative. I'd like to
            > know where this word was borrowed from too. Semitish **Tamlu:, perhaps?
            > Buddha only knows.
            >
            IMHO Hittite s^- in s^am(a)lu- 'apple' would be a consequence of Fournet's Law.

            The Hittite word should be analyzed as a prefix *?\a- plus a root *mh\alV corresponding to NEC *mh\alV- ~ *mh\anV- 'warm'. This laryngeal fricative would cause the preceding *m to be denasalized in *?\a-mh\alV > *abol- 'apple'. And the variant *?\a-m\hanV would be reflected in Uralic *omena 'apple'.

          • Tavi
            ...
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 5, 2012
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
              >
              > IMHO Hittite s^- in s^am(a)lu- 'apple' would be a consequence of
              > Fournet's Law.
              >
              > The Hittite word should be analyzed as a prefix *?\a- plus a root
              > *mh\alV corresponding to NEC *mh\alV- ~ *mh\anV-
              > <http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ca\
              > uc/caucet&text_number=+111&root=config> 'warm'. This laryngeal
              > fricative would cause the preceding *m to be denasalized in *?\a-mh\alV
              > > *abol- 'apple'. And the variant *?\a-mh\anV would be reflected in
              > Uralic *omena 'apple'.
              >
              I'm assuming traditional PIE *h3 is a voiced pharyngeal fricative ?\, as suggested by some authors.

              > *sam-/*sºm-ro- 'summer' ~ *h2e:m-ºr- '(heat of the) day' (Greek he:méra, Armenian awr 'day')
              >
              This corresponds to Semitic *X\amm- 'to be hot; warm'
               
              Also Latin si:mius 'monkey, imitator' < *seim- can be linked to ima:go 'image' and aemulus 'imitator; enemy, rival' < *h2eim-.

              > By contrast, when *s- derives from a palatal sibilant like the one
              > proposed by Gamkrelidze-Ivanov, it corresponds to traditional PIE *y-:
              >
              > *sa(n)k- 'to sanctify' (Latin sacer, sanctus) ~ *yag^- 'to honour, to
              > worship' (Greek hágios, etc.)
              >
              Altaic *tHákHì 'ceremony, sacrifice', NEC *=@qE 'to rise, to be high' (victimes were raised over the altar in sacrifices).

              > *sah2-n- 'healthy' (Latin sa:nus) ~ *yak- 'to cure' (Greek ákos)
              >
              Altaic *sè:gù 'healthy; blood', Latin sanguis 'blood' (with prenasalization), NEC *ts\'a:tK\wV 'blood; life' (NEC lateral affricates are roughly similar to traditional PIE "palato-velars").

              There's also *sem- 'one, the same' (Latin similis) vs. *yem- 'twin' (Sanskrit yamá-).

              Thus we've got 3 different "Alexandre's Laws":

              1) *?\ (*h3 in traditional PIE) > *s-
              2) *X\ (*h2 in traditional PIE) > *s-
              3) A palatal affricate (*y in traditional PIE) > *s-.

              1) and 2) correspond to post-velar fricatives and 3) to dorso-palatals.
            • Rick McCallister
              From: Tavi To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 9:21 AM Subject: [tied] Re: apple   ... I m assuming traditional
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 5, 2012


                From: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
                To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 9:21 AM
                Subject: [tied] Re: apple

                 
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                >
                > IMHO Hittite s^- in s^am(a)lu- 'apple' would be a consequence of
                > Fournet's Law.
                >
                > The Hittite word should be analyzed as a prefix *?\a- plus a root
                > *mh\alV corresponding to NEC *mh\alV- ~ *mh\anV-
                > <http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ca\
                > uc/caucet&text_number=+111&root=config> 'warm'. This laryngeal
                > fricative would cause the preceding *m to be denasalized in *?\a-mh\alV
                > > *abol- 'apple'. And the variant *?\a-mh\anV would be reflected in
                > Uralic *omena 'apple'.
                >
                I'm assuming traditional PIE *h3 is a voiced pharyngeal fricative ?\, as suggested by some authors.

                > *sam-/*sºm-ro- 'summer' ~ *h2e:m-ºr- '(heat of the) day' (Greek he:méra, Armenian awr 'day')
                >
                This corresponds to Semitic *X\amm- 'to be hot; warm'
                 
                Also Latin si:mius 'monkey, imitator' < *seim- can be linked to ima:go 'image' and aemulus 'imitator; enemy, rival' < *h2eim-.
                ****R Yes, but only if the latter words were borrowed from Greek, Armenian or Iranian

                > By contrast, when *s- derives from a palatal sibilant like the one
                > proposed by Gamkrelidze-Ivanov, it corresponds to traditional PIE *y-:
                >
                > *sa(n)k- 'to sanctify' (Latin sacer, sanctus) ~ *yag^- 'to honour, to
                > worship' (Greek hágios, etc.)
                >
                Altaic *tHákHì 'ceremony, sacrifice', NEC *=@qE 'to rise, to be high' (victimes were raised over the altar in sacrifices).

                > *sah2-n- 'healthy' (Latin sa:nus) ~ *yak- 'to cure' (Greek ákos)
                >
                Altaic *sè:gù 'healthy; blood', Latin sanguis 'blood' (with prenasalization), NEC *ts\'a:tK\wV 'blood; life' (NEC lateral affricates are roughly similar to traditional PIE "palato-velars").

                There's also *sem- 'one, the same' (Latin similis) vs. *yem- 'twin' (Sanskrit yamá-).
                ***R But wouldn't Latin gem- "twin" point to another direction

                Thus we've got 3 different "Alexandre's Laws":

                1) *?\ (*h3 in traditional PIE) > *s-
                2) *X\ (*h2 in traditional PIE) > *s-
                3) A palatal affricate (*y in traditional PIE) > *s-.

                1) and 2) correspond to post-velar fricatives and 3) to dorso-palatals.
                 
                ****R
                Tavi --you're too busy trying to reinvent the wheel, use the information that's already out there or you'll go bonkers


              • Tavi
                ... ima:go image and aemulus imitator; ... or Iranian ... Not exactly, but from the paleo-dialect of the Steppes from which these languages descend. ...
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 5, 2012
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Also Latin si:mius 'monkey, imitator' < *seim- can be linked to ima:go 'image' and aemulus 'imitator;
                  > > enemy, rival' < *h2eim-.
                  >
                  > Yes, but only if the latter words were borrowed from Greek, Armenian or Iranian
                  >
                  Not exactly, but from the paleo-dialect of the Steppes from which these languages descend.

                  > > There's also *sem- 'one, the same' (Latin similis) vs. *yem- 'twin' (Sanskrit yamá-).
                  > But wouldn't Latin gem- "twin" point to another direction
                  >
                  As Latin is a "centum" language, g- could reflex either a palatalized velar stop *g^ or an affricate *dZ which yield *y- in the paleo-dialect of the Steppes.

                  > Tavi --you're too busy trying to reinvent the wheel, use the information that's already out there or you'll go bonkers
                  >
                  Rick, I'm afraid these things aren't covered at all in the IE literature, except perhaps by Gamkrelidze-Ivanov, which aren't exactly mainstream.

                  Speaking of wheels, I think IE *seh2ul 'sun' could be the satemized version of a word whose original meaning was 'circle', hence 'wheel' as in NEC *3wil3a (where /3/ stands for the epiglottal stop). This way, Old Irish súil 'eye' < *su:li wouldn't derive from 'sun' as commonly though but from a homonymous root represented by NEC *3wil3i 'eye'.

                • Tavi
                  ... laryngeal ... reflected in ... The semantic motivation would be of course warm season fruit . I m not sure if IE *meh2l-o- apple is actually related
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > IMHO Hittite s^- in s^am(a)lu- 'apple' would be a consequence of
                    > Fournet's Law.
                    >
                    > The Hittite word should be analyzed as a prefix *?\a- plus a root
                    > *mh\alV corresponding to NEC *mh\alV- ~ *mh\anV- 'warm'. This laryngeal
                    > fricative would cause the preceding *m to be denasalized in
                    > *?\a-mh\alV *abol- 'apple'. And the variant *?\a-mh\anV would be reflected in
                    > Uralic *omena 'apple'.
                    >
                    The semantic motivation would be of course 'warm season' > 'fruit'.

                    I'm not sure if IE *meh2l-o- 'apple' is actually related to this (presumably by way of metathesis) as there's another (although anthropomorphic) suggestive possibility: Avaro-Andian *maq'a:la (~ -o) 'throat, larynx', Svan m@-q'l-a, m@-q'l-i 'neck, throat' (< Kartvelian *q'el- 'neck'). Here we'd have 'throat' > 'Adam's apple'.


                  • Tavi
                    ... laryngeal ... Not only here, but also in Afrasian *? a-bVl- leaf, grass , Kartvelian *bal- leaf , IE *bhel- to bloom . This and other examples
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 20, 2012
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > IMHO Hittite s^- in s^am(a)lu- 'apple' would be a consequence of
                      > Fournet's Law.
                      >
                      > The Hittite word should be analyzed as a prefix *?\a- plus a root
                      > *mh\alV corresponding to NEC *mh\alV- ~ *mh\anV- 'warm'. This laryngeal
                      > fricative would cause the preceding *m to be denasalized in
                      > *?\a-mh\alV *abol- 'apple'.
                      >
                      Not only here, but also in Afrasian *?\a-bVl- 'leaf, grass', Kartvelian *bal- 'leaf', IE *bhel- 'to bloom'.

                      This and other examples illustrate how the "Nostratic" castle is built upon a pile of Neolithic Wanderwörter.
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