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Re: Re[2]: [tied] Re: Was proto-romance a pidgin?

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  • alex_lycos
    ... has indonesia got the islamicreligion in an earlier time? I ask it because this statment was pointed with the center of gravity on the early adoption of
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 30, 2003
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      Brian M. Scott wrote:
      > At 3:42:26 PM on Tuesday, April 29, 2003, alex_lycos wrote:
      >
      > [...]
      >
      >> First of all not all the North Africa speak Arabic. The
      >> widespread of Arabic language there where it is is mostly
      >> trough the early adoption of the islamic religion and
      >> since the Arabic is the language of the Coran, every good
      >> muslem must know that language
      >
      > I believe that this last statement is false. The largest
      > Islamic country (in terms of population) is Indonesia, and I
      > do not believe that most Indonesians know Arabic. As I
      > understand it the normal practice in non-Arabic-speaking
      > Islamic countries is for the devout to commit large chunks
      > of the Qur'an to rote memory; this does not require learning
      > Arabic
      >
      > Brian


      has indonesia got the islamicreligion in an earlier time? I ask it
      because this statment was pointed with the center of gravity on "the
      early adoption of the islamic religion ".Even Turky is a Islamic country
      ( ok, the status of the state is an another) but the people speak
      Turkish and not Arabian. More, The Kurds are too moslems and speak
      Kurdish.
      A history of the islamic world ( 600 AC) will speak for itself. The
      Turks have been comming later in the Region but I wonder when became the
      Kurds moslems since they did not got the Arabic as their language.
    • tgpedersen
      ... in, but ... is the ... Creoles ... what is a ... pidgin, ... Elite breakdown. The loss of the class that writes letters to the editor, checks other
      Message 2 of 26 , May 1 1:17 AM
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@b...> wrote:
        > > > perhaps the creoles are spoken by those who were participating
        in, but
        > not actively >>travelling in the trade network.
        >
        > Why would they speak such a Creole? Where did it come from? What
        is the
        > linguistic context which would produce speakers of this creole?
        Creoles
        > typically emerge when native speakers learn as a first language,
        what is a
        > pidgin or second language for their parents. Why would anyone not
        > "travelling in the trade network" replace their own language by a
        pidgin,
        > and start speaking it in the home?
        >
        > The concept is not really believable.
        >
        Elite breakdown. The loss of the class that writes letters to the
        editor, checks other peoples' spelling and writes postings on
        cybalist. 1066 and all that.

        Torsten
      • tgpedersen
        ... irregularities in ... analogies and ... with thunk praught ... Sorry for my imprecise wording. What I meant is that conservative forms survive for
        Message 3 of 26 , May 1 1:22 AM
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@b...> wrote:
          > >> and some of the lost irregularity is reinstated.
          >
          > Anything "lost" in language cannot be reinstated. Lost
          irregularities in
          > particular can never be "reinstated", but can be recreated by
          analogies and
          > the like (the way English makes new irregularities
          with "thunk" "praught"
          > etc) but as such they bear no necessary relationship to the original
          > situation.
          >
          > If they are "reinstated" they cannot have been lost.
          >
          Sorry for my imprecise wording. What I meant is that conservative
          forms survive for special situations in special groups, and from
          there are reinstated as 'proper' forms.

          Torsten
        • P&G
          ... And are you seriously suggesting there was such an elite breakdown throughout the Roman Empire? The evidence is that the invaders learnt the elite
          Message 4 of 26 , May 1 12:05 PM
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            >>Why would anyone not
            > > "travelling in the trade network" replace their own language by a
            >> pidgin, and start speaking it in the home?
            > Elite breakdown.

            And are you seriously suggesting there was such an "elite breakdown"
            throughout the Roman Empire? The evidence is that the invaders learnt the
            elite language, not the other way round.

            Peter
          • Miguel Carrasquer
            On Thu, 01 May 2003 08:32:52 +0200, alex_lycos ... Indonesia was Islamized from the 13th - 15th c.by the influence of non-Arabic speaking
            Message 5 of 26 , May 1 3:09 PM
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              On Thu, 01 May 2003 08:32:52 +0200, alex_lycos <altamix@...>
              wrote:

              >has indonesia got the islamicreligion in an earlier time?

              Indonesia was Islamized from the 13th - 15th c.by the influence of
              non-Arabic speaking Muslim Indian traders. Islam in India dates back
              to the conquest of Sindh by Arabs in 712, although the big push (Delhi
              Sultanate) came in the 12th c. and was a wholly Turkish-Persian
              affair.

              >I ask it
              >because this statment was pointed with the center of gravity on "the
              >early adoption of the islamic religion ".Even Turky is a Islamic country
              >( ok, the status of the state is an another) but the people speak
              >Turkish and not Arabian. More, The Kurds are too moslems and speak
              >Kurdish.
              >A history of the islamic world ( 600 AC) will speak for itself. The
              >Turks have been comming later in the Region but I wonder when became the
              >Kurds moslems since they did not got the Arabic as their language.

              The Kurds, like the Persians, adopted Islam already in the 7th.
              century, but never the Arabic language. The Kurdish mountains
              probably offering protection enough against too much Arabic influence,
              they did not adopt Shi'ism for national-political reasons, as the
              Persians did.

              The Maghreb became part of the Caliphate by 705, also rather early,
              but control from Baghdad was short-lived. The Arabic language didn't
              become a factor until ca. 1050, when the Fatimid Caliphs of Egypt set
              loose the Benu Hilal and Benu Sulaym Arab bedouin tribes on their
              unfaithful Berber governors.

              =======================
              Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
              mcv@...
            • alex_lycos
              Miguel Carrasquer wrote: infos about islamic periods & countries ... thank you for the infos Miguel. Alex
              Message 6 of 26 , May 1 3:46 PM
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                Miguel Carrasquer wrote:

                infos about islamic periods & countries
                >
                > =======================
                > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                > mcv@...
                >


                thank you for the infos Miguel.

                Alex
              • Brian M. Scott
                ... I don t have anything handy that would give me any details, but I know that there were several Middle Dutch dialects and that some of them differed
                Message 7 of 26 , May 2 1:02 PM
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                  At 4:22:26 AM on Thursday, May 1, 2003, tgpedersen wrote:

                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@b...> wrote:

                  >> >> and some of the lost irregularity is reinstated.

                  >> Anything "lost" in language cannot be reinstated. Lost
                  >> irregularities in particular can never be "reinstated",
                  >> but can be recreated by analogies and the like (the way
                  >> English makes new irregularities with "thunk" "praught"
                  >> etc) but as such they bear no necessary relationship to
                  >> the original situation.

                  >> If they are "reinstated" they cannot have been lost.

                  > Sorry for my imprecise wording. What I meant is that
                  > conservative forms survive for special situations in
                  > special groups, and from there are reinstated as 'proper'
                  > forms.

                  I don't have anything handy that would give me any details,
                  but I know that there were several Middle Dutch dialects and
                  that some of them differed considerably. The change that
                  you mentioned need be no more than a shift in cultural
                  dominance from one of these dialects to another; such shifts
                  have certainly occurred. In that case there would be no
                  need to invoke 'special situations in special groups'.

                  Brian
                • tgpedersen
                  ... by a ... breakdown ... learnt the ... Of course. Isn t that what Gibbon s work was all about? The evidence is that the invaders learnt the language in a
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 3 2:23 AM
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@b...> wrote:
                    > >>Why would anyone not
                    > > > "travelling in the trade network" replace their own language
                    by a
                    > >> pidgin, and start speaking it in the home?
                    > > Elite breakdown.
                    >
                    > And are you seriously suggesting there was such an "elite
                    breakdown"
                    > throughout the Roman Empire? The evidence is that the invaders
                    learnt the
                    > elite language, not the other way round.

                    Of course. Isn't that what Gibbon's work was all about?
                    The evidence is that the invaders learnt the language in a version
                    the ex-elite didn't speak.

                    Torsten
                  • tgpedersen
                    ... Add sociolects and you have basically rephrased my statement. Torsten
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 3 2:25 AM
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > At 4:22:26 AM on Thursday, May 1, 2003, tgpedersen wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@b...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >> >> and some of the lost irregularity is reinstated.
                      >
                      > >> Anything "lost" in language cannot be reinstated. Lost
                      > >> irregularities in particular can never be "reinstated",
                      > >> but can be recreated by analogies and the like (the way
                      > >> English makes new irregularities with "thunk" "praught"
                      > >> etc) but as such they bear no necessary relationship to
                      > >> the original situation.
                      >
                      > >> If they are "reinstated" they cannot have been lost.
                      >
                      > > Sorry for my imprecise wording. What I meant is that
                      > > conservative forms survive for special situations in
                      > > special groups, and from there are reinstated as 'proper'
                      > > forms.
                      >
                      > I don't have anything handy that would give me any details,
                      > but I know that there were several Middle Dutch dialects and
                      > that some of them differed considerably. The change that
                      > you mentioned need be no more than a shift in cultural
                      > dominance from one of these dialects to another; such shifts
                      > have certainly occurred. In that case there would be no
                      > need to invoke 'special situations in special groups'.

                      Add 'sociolects' and you have basically rephrased my statement.

                      Torsten
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