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Re: [tied] FW: Re: Latin viridian

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  • alex_lycos
    ... thank you Richard.
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 27 9:18 PM
      Wordingham, Richard wrote:
      > Dear Alex (and anyone else who's interested),
      > If you have a PC, I
      > think it would be well worth your while getting acquainted with Mark
      > Rosenfelder's 'sound change applier' at
      > http://www.zompist.com/sounds.htm . The -p modifier is useful for
      > debugging your sound changes. If you've got a compiler, it's well
      > worth increasing the number of rules; a limit of 200 is too low for
      > serious work. I've put together Miguel's rules (and a few others) in
      > the attached file romanian.sc and some specimen Latin words in
      > latin.lex. Note that vowel length needs to be marked with a colon
      >
      > It took quite a while to sort out the ordering of the rules, and I'm
      > still not happy that I get $epte, not $apte, from septem 'seven'.
      > I've cheated with a couple of the Latin words - 'dre:ctus' and
      > 'dre:cta', not 'di:rectus' and 'di:re:cta', and 'virdia', not
      > 'viridia'. The latter is interesting; I don't remember anyone
      > commenting that when 'viridis syncopated to *'virdis, the neuter
      > plural changed from vi'ridia to *'virdia
      >
      > Richard


      thank you Richard.
    • alex_lycos
      ... Excuse me Miguel, where should the e after palatal not be pronounced? In PRB or where? Actually the sound is an e in the diphthong ea . And in which
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 1, 2003
        Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
        > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:10:19 +0000, "Wordingham, Richard"
        > <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:
        >
        >> It took quite a while to sort out the ordering of the rules, and I'm
        >> still not happy that I get $epte, not $apte, from septem 'seven'
        >
        > The s->$/_!iV rule comes before the iea > ia and ea > e..e# rules, and
        > you need a special rule (also before ea > e..e#) that e after palatal
        > sound is not pronounced (ceapã = /c^ap&/, sãgeatã = /s&dZat&/, $eapte
        > = /$apte/). So sEpte > siepte > sieapte > $eapte > $apte

        Excuse me Miguel, where should the "e" after palatal not be pronounced?
        In PRB or where?
        Actually the sound is an "e" in the diphthong "ea". And in which dialect
        should be "sãdzatã" for "sãgeatã"? I am not aware of it but you got me
        curious. Or maybe /dz/ here is just the way to write for affricated /g/
        like in "joke"?
        Normally the /e/ how you said in the previous rules, diphtongued to
        "ie". The "i" from /ie/ became a part of the consonant before it , so
        /t/+/i/=/ts/, /s/+/i/= S and there should have remained the /e/ in the
        word , it was not elided or "mute".
        Now it seems that this "e" which remained "free" from /ie/ diphtongued
        once again to "ea" and monophtongued once again to "a".
        So the chain transformations for vocalism of Latin "septem" are
        /e/>/ie/>/e/>/ea/>/a/ for giving Rom. "Sapte".
        Theoretically very probable. The question is which was the need for
        making it?
        The answer: there was no need. The actual form in Rom. Lang. should be
        explained just trough Latin. Therefore it _must have been_ this chain of
        transformations.
        Interesting should be in the actual language that from an /a/ you can
        get an /e/ when deriving: Sapte but înSepti= to make it seven times
        more. But how you showed these rules should work and there should be
        more examples for /e/ which became an /a/ after s,d,t,k,g having now the
        form /Sa/, /Za/, /Tsa/, /tSa/,/Ga/. We can try to find some with this
        form at the begin of the word.

        -------------
        With /Sa/
        -------------
        saddle = Sa < sella
        seven = Sapte < septem
        snake = Sarpe < serpens, serpentis ( see Note 1)
        six = Sase < sex
        Counterexamples: (see please Note 1)
        to sit = a Sedea < sedere
        slave = Serb < servus
        plain = Ses < sessum
        __________________________________
        Note 1
        Sarpe= there is too the forms with "Serpe" and all derivatives are with
        "e" like:
        Serpoaica, SerpiSor, Serpui, Serpoi, Serpuitor
        Sedea= in conjugation there is too the form with "a":
        eu Sed (Sãd), tu Sezi(Sãzi), el Shede ( el Sade), noi Sedem, voi Sedeti,
        ei Sed ( ei Sãd)
        __________________________________

        -----------
        With /Za/
        -----------
        larch tree = zardã < daeda (=taeda)
        Counterexamples ( see please Note 2)
        sauce = zeamã < zema ( is here short e?)
        ten = zetSe < decem
        dowry = zestre < dexteram
        __________________________________
        Note 2:
        zeama= derivates are with "e". zemos, zemui
        __________________________________

        -----------
        With /Tsa)
        -----------
        country = tsarã < terra
        Counter example (see please Note 3)
        to weave = tsese < texere
        texture = tsesãturã < textura
        ___________________________________
        Note 3
        texture= tsesãturã is not given as inherited from latin . DEx gives it
        as a properly Romanian construction from the verb "tsese" and suffix
        "-tura". Myself, I am not very clarified about the "-tura" & "-toare"
        Suffix "-tura" is from suffix "-tor" (?) but it doesn't matches
        perfectly since the feminine form for "-tor" is "toare" cf.
        sunator/sunatoare, tsipator/tsipatoare. The suffix "tura" is to find in
        words like muratura,acritura, etc.
        ___________________________________

        ----------
        With /Ga/
        ----------
        I ask myself what we can get here. I cannot see now the construction
        since /e/>/ie/ and if /g/+/i/ became a /gi/ like in /joke/, then the
        words where the remaining /e/ is still present should be words with the
        group /g^e/ or, for counter examples, the group /g^e/. If I am not wrong
        with this assertion , I try to find some ( ^= the "i" which became part
        of affricated /g/)

        to moan = geme < gemere
        knee = genunchi < geniculus
        frost = ger < gelu
        Counter examples
        twin = geamãn < geminus
        moan = geamãt < gemitus
        eyelash = geanã < *genna(= gena=check, face)
        Alex
      • Miguel Carrasquer
        On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:22:01 +0100, alex_lycos ... In (standard) Romanian. Bourciez $460.3: Derrière une palatale l e ne se prononce pas
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 1, 2003
          On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:22:01 +0100, "alex_lycos" <altamix@...>
          wrote:

          >Excuse me Miguel, where should the "e" after palatal not be pronounced?
          >In PRB or where?

          In (standard) Romanian. Bourciez $460.3: "Derrière une palatale l'e
          ne se prononce pas dans roum. ceapã = ce:pa, sãgeatã = sagitta."

          >Actually the sound is an "e" in the diphthong "ea".

          In general yes, but not after the palatal sounds (/s^/, /z^/, /c^/,
          /dz^/ and /y/ [/iea/ > /ia/]).

          >And in which dialect should be "sãdzatã" for "sãgeatã"? I am not aware
          >of it but you got me curious. Or maybe /dz/ here is just the way to write
          >for affricated /g/ like in "joke"?

          Yes: /dZ/, actually. I sometimes slip back into ASCII-IPA /S/, /Z/
          for what I prefer to write as /s^/, /z^/. And if /$/ is used for the
          first, I'll also go along.

          >Normally the /e/ how you said in the previous rules, diphtongued to
          >"ie". The "i" from /ie/ became a part of the consonant before it , so
          >/t/+/i/=/ts/, /s/+/i/= S and there should have remained the /e/ in the
          >word , it was not elided or "mute".
          >Now it seems that this "e" which remained "free" from /ie/ diphtongued
          >once again to "ea" and monophtongued once again to "a".
          >So the chain transformations for vocalism of Latin "septem" are
          >/e/>/ie/>/e/>/ea/>/a/ for giving Rom. "Sapte".

          Pay attention. The chain of transformations was /se/ > /sE/ > /sie/ >
          /siea/ > /s^ea/ > /s^a/

          >Interesting should be in the actual language that from an /a/ you can
          >get an /e/ when deriving: Sapte but înSepti= to make it seven times
          >more.

          The breaking of (i)e to (i)ea occurs only when the vowel is stressed
          (so not in the infinitive -í, -íre), and when the word ends in -e or
          -a (and if it ends in -e, -ea- eventually goes back to -e- in
          Daco-Romanian: Macedo-Romanian leadze, seate > Daco-Romanian lege,
          sete).

          >But how you showed these rules should work and there should be
          >more examples for /e/ which became an /a/ after s,d,t,k,g having now the
          >form /Sa/, /Za/, /Tsa/, /tSa/,/Ga/. We can try to find some with this
          >form at the begin of the word.

          Before doing so, you should have checked for the exact conditions.
          Only stressed /e/ (ie. /E/ from Latin short /e/) before final -e and
          -a are covered by the rule. All of your so-called counterexamples
          have either unstressed /e/ or stressed /e/ before other vowels, and
          can be thrown out right away. I won't even discuss them.


          =======================
          Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
          mcv@...
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