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Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was Medieval Dragons, dog/snake, Greek D...

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  • CeiSerith@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/20/2003 9:27:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... But *Yemos isn t the earth. His skull becomes the sky, his brain the clouds, his eyes the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003
      In a message dated 1/20/2003 9:27:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, glengordon01@... writes:


      I think, for example, of the
      brother rivalry between *Manus and *Yemos, the latter of
      which was killed by *Manus and which I identify as the god of
      the earth and ultimately of the dead who are buried in the
      earth afterall.

      So, if *Yemos is the earth, who is *Manus supposed to be?
      Although I think he is meant to be the "first man", our
      not-so-perfect ancestor who commits a tragic sin, I have a
      feeling that he has a special link with the sky. Hence the
      dual opposition idea.


         But *Yemos isn't the earth.  His skull becomes the sky, his brain the clouds, his eyes the sun and moon.  He is rather the cosmos.
         I think that the idea of binary opposition in PIE religion is worth investigating, however.  Gamkrelidze and Ivanov seem to at least be hinting at the "original" pairing of the god of the bright sky (*Dyeus Pater) and the god of the dark, i.e., stormy, sky (likely *Perkwunos).  Personal theory:  as PIE society developed into a a complex one, and as it developed from an ergative language into one with three genders, triplicity became at least as important as duality.  This gave rise to the Dumezilian functions.  *Dyeus Pater got bumped to the first function, and *Perkwunos took the second.  This helps explain how such deities as Thor, Indra, and Mars all have agricultural sides to them; it is left over from when they were simply storm deities, that is, rain deities.

      David Fickett-Wilbar
    • Glen Gordon
      ... Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is waaay too Norse-sounding to me. Of course, you re talking about Ymir. Aside from Norse mythology, how might you justify this
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003
        David:
        >But *Yemos isn't the earth. His skull becomes the sky, his brain the
        >clouds, his eyes the sun and moon. He is rather the cosmos.

        Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is waaay too Norse-sounding to me. Of course,
        you're talking about Ymir. Aside from Norse mythology, how might you
        justify this view?


        >Personal theory: as PIE society developed into a a complex one,

        Problem number one: Define "complex". This sentence irks the budding
        ethnologist in me.


        >[...] and as it developed from an ergative language into one with three
        >genders, triplicity became at least as important as duality.

        I severely doubt that morphology has anything to do with mythology but
        you can believe whatever you wish.


        >This gave rise to the Dumezilian functions. *Dyeus Pater got bumped to
        >the first function, and *Perkwunos took the second.

        No, I don't think so. I think *Dye:us, the clear sky, and *PerkWnos,
        the storm, both were sky deities. They are borrowed from the Near
        East where we have El and Baal, for example. However, *PerkWnos-Baal,
        being storm, was related to rain (or rather "water from the sky") and as
        such was probably originally a water god. In other words, they stem
        from the original dual opposition between skies above and waters below
        (bird and serpent), only later reduplicating the water deity in a sky
        position. Added duplicity ensued, thus *Nepo:ts.


        >This helps explain how such deities as Thor, Indra, and Mars all have
        >agricultural sides to them; it is left over from when they were simply
        >storm deities, that is, rain deities.

        Yes, so we both see a storm-rain link. Good. The agricultural connection
        involves rain.


        - gLeN



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      • Andrew Howey
        Hello: Here s a link that Glen and others might find interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm It s being called the oldest star chart
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003

          Hello:

          Here's a link that Glen and others might find interesting:

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm

          It's being called the "oldest star chart" that has been found and was supposedly made by people of the Aurignacian culture.  This artifact was found in the Ach Valley in the Alb-Danube region of Germany.

          Andy Howey

        • danjmi <dmilt1896@aol.com>
          I read the story earlier today, and did some checking. Here s a quote from a two-year old story I found on the Net: When most people look at stone-age cave
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003
            I read the story earlier today, and did some checking. Here's a
            quote from a two-year old story I found on the Net:
            "When most people look at stone-age cave paintings, they see
            charging bulls, prancing reindeer and other animals.
            Dr. Michael A. Rappenglueck also sees maps of the night sky, and
            images of shamanistic ritual teeming with cosmological meaning."
            BBC should be ashamed of publicizing such nonsense.
            My opinion.
            Dan Milton



            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Howey
            <andyandmae_howey@s...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello:
            > Here's a link that Glen and others might find interesting:
            > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm
            > It's being called the "oldest star chart" that has been found and
            was supposedly made by people of the Aurignacian culture. This
            artifact was found in the Ach Valley in the Alb-Danube region of
            Germany.
            > Andy Howey
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <dmilt1896@...>
              To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was Medieval Dragons, dog/snake, Greek D...


              > I read the story earlier today, and did some checking. Here's a
              > quote from a two-year old story I found on the Net:
              > "When most people look at stone-age cave paintings, they see
              > charging bulls, prancing reindeer and other animals.
              > Dr. Michael A. Rappenglueck also sees maps of the night sky, and
              > images of shamanistic ritual teeming with cosmological meaning."
              > BBC should be ashamed of publicizing such nonsense.
              > My opinion.
              > Dan Milton


              Mine too. See

              http://www.thehallofmaat.com/maat/read.php?f=1&i=89847&t=89847

              Piotr
            • CeiSerith@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/21/2003 11:10:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Bruce Lincoln covers this is Myth, Cosmos and Society. He draws on parallels from a number
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003
                In a message dated 1/21/2003 11:10:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, glengordon01@... writes:


                But *Yemos isn't the earth.  His skull becomes the sky, his brain the
                >clouds, his eyes the sun and moon.  He is rather the cosmos.

                Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is waaay too Norse-sounding to me. Of course,
                you're talking about Ymir. Aside from Norse mythology, how might you
                justify this view?


                   Bruce Lincoln covers this is Myth, Cosmos and Society.  He draws on parallels from a number of IE societies, particularly Vedic.




                >Personal theory:  as PIE society developed into a a complex one,

                Problem number one: Define "complex". This sentence irks the budding
                ethnologist in me.


                   You're right; that is a loose term.  I mean by it a society in which there is considerable division of labor, where tasks become considerably specialized.

                David Fickett-Wilbar
              • Glen Gordon
                ... At least in regards to the name *Yemos, Yama would be the Vedic counterpart. How is Yama s skull the sky, his brain the clouds, his eyes the sun and moon?
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 21, 2003
                  David:
                  >But *Yemos isn't the earth. [...] He is rather the cosmos.

                  Me:
                  >Whoa, whoa, whoa. [...] Aside from Norse mythology, how might you
                  >justify this view?

                  David:
                  >Bruce Lincoln covers this is Myth, Cosmos and Society. He draws on
                  >parallels from a number of IE societies, particularly Vedic.

                  At least in regards to the name *Yemos, Yama would be the Vedic
                  counterpart. How is Yama's skull the sky, his brain the clouds, his
                  eyes the sun and moon? Is Yama the cosmos?


                  - gLeN


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                • CeiSerith@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/22/2003 2:45:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Someone better versed in Vedic studies should handle this. I think that Lincoln is
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 22, 2003
                    In a message dated 1/22/2003 2:45:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, glengordon01@... writes:


                    At least in regards to the name *Yemos, Yama would be the Vedic
                    counterpart. How is Yama's skull the sky, his brain the clouds, his
                    eyes the sun and moon? Is Yama the cosmos?


                       Someone better versed in Vedic studies should handle this.  I think that Lincoln is suggesting that the role of Yama as the lord of the dead is relevant; he is the first to die.

                    David Fickett-Wilbar
                  • João Simões Lopes Filho
                    The Indo-Iranian *Yama was substituted in India by Purus.a, while his name was confused with *Manus, so Yama became in India the king of the dead, and played a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 22, 2003
                      The Indo-Iranian *Yama was substituted in India by Purus.a, while his name
                      was confused with *Manus, so Yama became in India the king of the dead, and
                      played a similar role in Persia, although slightly different.

                      Joao SL
                      Rio
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
                      To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:45 AM
                      Subject: Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was Medieval Dragons,
                      dog/snake, Greek D...


                      >
                      > David:
                      > >But *Yemos isn't the earth. [...] He is rather the cosmos.
                      >
                      > Me:
                      > >Whoa, whoa, whoa. [...] Aside from Norse mythology, how might you
                      > >justify this view?
                      >
                      > David:
                      > >Bruce Lincoln covers this is Myth, Cosmos and Society. He draws on
                      > >parallels from a number of IE societies, particularly Vedic.
                      >
                      > At least in regards to the name *Yemos, Yama would be the Vedic
                      > counterpart. How is Yama's skull the sky, his brain the clouds, his
                      > eyes the sun and moon? Is Yama the cosmos?
                      >
                      >
                      > - gLeN
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                    • Glen Gordon
                      ... But of course he is the first to die -- He represents the first to die and the first victim of the first sin. I don t see how he necessarily needs to be
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 22, 2003
                        David:
                        >>At least in regards to the name *Yemos, Yama would be the Vedic
                        >>counterpart. How is Yama's skull the sky, his brain the clouds,
                        >>his eyes the sun and moon? Is Yama the cosmos?
                        >
                        >Someone better versed in Vedic studies should handle this. I
                        >think that Lincoln is suggesting that the role of Yama as the lord of the
                        >dead is relevant; he is the first to die.

                        But of course he is the first to die -- He represents the first
                        to die and the first victim of the first sin. I don't see how he
                        necessarily needs to be the cosmos just because he may be the
                        first to die.


                        - gLeN


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                      • Glen Gordon
                        ... What evidence that *Yamas took over the role of *Manus? - gLeN _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 22, 2003
                          Joao:
                          >The Indo-Iranian *Yama was substituted in India by Purus.a,
                          >while his name was confused with *Manus, so Yama became in India the king
                          >of the dead, and played a similar role in Persia,
                          >although slightly different.

                          What evidence that *Yamas took over the role of *Manus?


                          - gLeN


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                        • CeiSerith@aol.com
                          In a message dated 1/23/2003 1:19:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... I don t believe he is the victim of the first sin. Rather, he is the victim of the first
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 23, 2003
                            In a message dated 1/23/2003 1:19:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, glengordon01@... writes:


                            But of course he is the first to die -- He represents the first
                            to die and the first victim of the first sin.


                               I don't believe he is the victim of the first "sin."  Rather, he is the victim of the first sacrifice.  There was certainly a touch of hesitation about sacrifice in Greece and in late Vedism/Hinduism (to the point where Hinduism spiritualized the act completely), but I don't get the feeling that it was a "sin."  After all, if the gods want you to do it, how can it be a sin?

                            David Fickett-Wilbar
                          • philippos2003
                            it is more complicated that you semm to believe remind you this athenian festival of bouphonia cf. www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/BouphThu.htm ... From:
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 23, 2003
                              it is more complicated that you semm to believe
                              remind you this athenian festival of bouphonia
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:52 PM
                              Subject: Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was Medieval Dragons, dog/snake, Greek D...

                              In a message dated 1/23/2003 1:19:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, glengordon01@... writes:


                              But of course he is the first to die -- He represents the first
                              to die and the first victim of the first sin.


                                 I don't believe he is the victim of the first "sin."  Rather, he is the victim of the first sacrifice.  There was certainly a touch of hesitation about sacrifice in Greece and in late Vedism/Hinduism (to the point where Hinduism spiritualized the act completely), but I don't get the feeling that it was a "sin."  After all, if the gods want you to do it, how can it be a sin?

                              David Fickett-Wilbar


                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            • CeiSerith@aol.com
                              In a message dated 1/23/2003 2:16:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, I m aware of this ritual. It has exerted an immense fascination over interpreters of
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 23, 2003
                                In a message dated 1/23/2003 2:16:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, philippos2003@... writes:


                                it is more complicated that you semm to believe
                                remind you this athenian festival of bouphonia
                                cf. www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/BouphThu.htm


                                   Yes, I'm aware of this ritual.  It has exerted an immense fascination over interpreters of Greek ritual.  I think, however, that this is a case of the exception proving the rule.  The very fact that classicists make such a fuss about this ritual shows that it seems anomalous to them.  Not having studied Greek sacrificial ritual in the same depth as they have I have to think that that means that the particular aversion to sacrifice is unique to this ritual.  That's the question that needs to be asked.

                                David Fickett-Wilbar
                              • João Simões Lopes Filho
                                *Yamas in Indo-Iranian played the role of king of dead and first man , and become brother of Manu. Joao SL ... From: Glen Gordon
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 23, 2003
                                  *Yamas in Indo-Iranian played the role of "king of dead" and "first man",
                                  and become brother of Manu.

                                  Joao SL
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
                                  To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:20 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was Medieval Dragons,
                                  dog/snake, Greek D...


                                  >
                                  > Joao:
                                  > >The Indo-Iranian *Yama was substituted in India by Purus.a,
                                  > >while his name was confused with *Manus, so Yama became in India the king
                                  > >of the dead, and played a similar role in Persia,
                                  > >although slightly different.
                                  >
                                  > What evidence that *Yamas took over the role of *Manus?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > - gLeN
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
                                  > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                • Glen Gordon
                                  ... I couldn t possibly believe that sacrifice didn t happen. Afterall, the whole horns and double-axe imagery appears to me to be implying prehistoric
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 25, 2003
                                    David:
                                    >I don't believe he is the victim of the first "sin." Rather, he is the
                                    >victim of the first sacrifice.

                                    I couldn't possibly believe that sacrifice didn't happen. Afterall,
                                    the whole horns and double-axe imagery appears to me to be implying
                                    prehistoric sacrifice ritual involving an animal of some kind, let
                                    alone the countless IE myths that seem to tie together to imply the
                                    same. The question, however, is what is the purpose behind the story
                                    of the rivalling brothers?

                                    Sacrifice would not be considered a sin, no, since this is an act to
                                    worship your deities and give back what is taken from you. However,
                                    I can't help thinking that the Labours of Hercules and the story of
                                    a warrior slaying a dragon to regain his stolen crops is tied in with
                                    this.

                                    With Hercules, Hera punishes him but the reasons behind why she does
                                    this basically involve empty jealousy. The fact that Zeus was being
                                    a horndog sleeping around with women that he shouldn't have is the
                                    cause of this. I then see a connection with the serpent-slaying as
                                    one of these labours that an original "hero", the first man, must
                                    perform. The interesting thing about heroes in these legends is that
                                    they often seem to glorify a "handicap" hero. Hercules, for example,
                                    is only _half_ god.

                                    I feel that the "human handicap" as it were (or rather "mortality")
                                    is the main punishment for the sin of killing one's brother. A Hera-like
                                    character representing "justice" would have carried out the punishment
                                    of mortality and the labours to endure (aka "community service") that were
                                    decided upon by *Dye:us, representing the other side of the coin, "law".

                                    By undergoing these labours, even a murderer, a person like that of the
                                    wolf, can redeem themselves. Few cultures would condone the killing of
                                    one's own blood, even for ritualistic purposes. Even in the Bible, we
                                    have Cain and Abel which demonstrate the duelling brother theme nicely.
                                    Here, there is no redemption and Cain is banished forever because this
                                    is the particular morality of the culture behind this version of the
                                    tale.

                                    So such a tale would speak of the origin of "man", the reasons behind
                                    "mortality", the crime of jealousy and murder, and finally the basic law
                                    of redemption, all in one blow. Not bad, hunh?


                                    - gLeN


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                                  • Shock Ra
                                    ... Interesting. The Epic of Gilgamesh seems to demonstrate some of the motifs you are talking about. Motif of parted twins/ best friends(Gilgamesh and
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 26, 2003



                                      >From: "Glen Gordon"
                                      >Reply-To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [tied] Ancient female figurines (was Medieval Dragons, dog/snake, Greek D...
                                      >Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:26:05 +0000
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >David:
                                      > >I don't believe he is the victim of the first "sin." Rather, he is the
                                      > >victim of the first sacrifice.
                                      >
                                      >I couldn't possibly believe that sacrifice didn't happen. Afterall,
                                      >the whole horns and double-axe imagery appears to me to be implying
                                      >prehistoric sacrifice ritual involving an animal of some kind, let
                                      >alone the countless IE myths that seem to tie together to imply the
                                      >same. The question, however, is what is the purpose behind the story
                                      >of the rivalling brothers?
                                      >
                                      >Sacrifice would not be considered a sin, no, since this is an act to
                                      >worship your deities and give back what is taken from you. However,
                                      >I can't help thinking that the Labours of Hercules and the story of
                                      >a warrior slaying a dragon to regain his stolen crops is tied in with
                                      >this.
                                      >
                                      >With Hercules, Hera punishes him but the reasons behind why she does
                                      >this basically involve empty jealousy. The fact that Zeus was being
                                      >a horndog sleeping around with women that he shouldn't have is the
                                      >cause of this. I then see a connection with the serpent-slaying as
                                      >one of these labours that an original "hero", the first man, must
                                      >perform. The interesting thing about heroes in these legends is that
                                      >they often seem to glorify a "handicap" hero. Hercules, for example,
                                      >is only _half_ god.
                                      >
                                      >I feel that the "human handicap" as it were (or rather "mortality")
                                      >is the main punishment for the sin of killing one's brother. A Hera-like
                                      >character representing "justice" would have carried out the punishment
                                      >of mortality and the labours to endure (aka "community service") that were

                                      >decided upon by *Dye:us, representing the other side of the coin, "law".  

                                      >By undergoing these labours, even a murderer, a person like that of the
                                      >wolf, can redeem themselves. Few cultures would condone the killing of
                                      >one's own blood, even for ritualistic purposes. Even in the Bible, we
                                      >have Cain and Abel which demonstrate the duelling brother theme nicely.
                                      >Here, there is no redemption and Cain is banished forever because this
                                      >is the particular morality of the culture behind this version of the
                                      >tale.
                                      >
                                      >So such a tale would speak of the origin of "man", the reasons behind
                                      >"mortality", the crime of jealousy and murder, and finally the basic law
                                      >of redemption, all in one blow. Not bad, hunh?
                                      >  

                                      >- gLeN

                                      Interesting. The Epic of Gilgamesh seems to demonstrate some of the motifs you are talking about.

                                      Motif of parted twins/ best friends(Gilgamesh and Enkidu), the fall of natural/primoridal man(Enkidu seduced by the city priestess), the bull of heaven (bull of heaven is killed, gods get angry, kill Enkidu, spare Gilgamesh-scapegoat theme?). In this case, Gilgamesh doesn't kill his twin/friend, but nonetheless becomes aware of his mortality, the human handicap, as you say. Then, he does go on  a long journey in an attempt to redeem himself. Also, Gilgamesh, like Hercules, was partly mortal, partly divine.

                                      Cort Williams

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                      >

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                                    • Dirk Howat
                                      IMO, The II Primordial man, as Ymir, Yama is displaying the creation of man, the breaking up of the material giant into the more spiritual man, also by the
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Sep 1, 2004
                                        IMO,


                                        The II Primordial man, as Ymir, Yama is displaying the creation of
                                        man, the breaking up of the material giant into the more spiritual
                                        man, also by the breakup, illustrates the nature of divine society,
                                        As in Yama destruction divides itself into distinct qualitatively
                                        differing beings, new beings, from one to many. Then from Primordial
                                        Man/Yama/Ymir to Man/Laws of Manu/Rigsthula, to have the rita or log
                                        of the god who broke it up, thus giving a reason for the
                                        destruction/killing of this being into something qualitatively
                                        different. IMO, which was the gods intentional of being.




                                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > David:
                                        > >>At least in regards to the name *Yemos, Yama would be the Vedic
                                        > >>counterpart. How is Yama's skull the sky, his brain the clouds,
                                        > >>his eyes the sun and moon? Is Yama the cosmos?
                                        > >
                                        > >Someone better versed in Vedic studies should handle this. I
                                        > >think that Lincoln is suggesting that the role of Yama as the
                                        lord of the
                                        > >dead is relevant; he is the first to die.
                                        >
                                        > But of course he is the first to die -- He represents the first
                                        > to die and the first victim of the first sin. I don't see how he
                                        > necessarily needs to be the cosmos just because he may be the
                                        > first to die.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > - gLeN
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _________________________________________________________________
                                        > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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