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Re: [tied] Pramantha/Prometheus: a false etymology?

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  • Ravi Chaudhary
    ... might be ... would ... over ... What is the Date of the Greek legend acording to Graves or anyone else ? Ravi
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 30, 2002
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      --- In cybalist@y..., "Jean Kelly" <jeffcob@o...> wrote:
      > Yes - they are mentioned in "Greek Myths" 1960: 148. Graves, after
      > mentioning the Prometheus/Pramantha etymology, suggests that they
      might be
      > prototypes of Prometheus and Epimetheus. But, as a non-linguist, I
      would
      > venture to say that Piotr Gasiorowski's arguments seem to me to win
      over
      > Graves.
      >
      > Jean Kelly
      >

      What is the Date of the Greek legend acording to Graves or anyone
      else ?



      Ravi
    • João Simões Lopes Filho
      Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many common traits. Joao SL ... From: Ravi Chaudhary To:
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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        Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many common
        traits.

        Joao SL
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ravi Chaudhary <ravi9@...>
        To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 3:03 AM
        Subject: Re: [tied] PIE fire god


        --- In cybalist@y..., João Simões Lopes Filho <jodan99@u...> wrote:
        > Prometheus was also called Ithax (<*idh-nk- "to burn"). This seems
        to be a
        > good candidate for the older IE name of Prometheus, since he had
        strong
        > links to the PIE fire-god, messenger and trickster.
        >
        > Joao SL

        Why would the PIE fire god be taken as a messenger and trickster ??

        Ravi.






        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Jean Kelly
        ... good candidate for the older IE name of Prometheus, since he had strong links to the PIE fire-god, messenger and trickster. That looks very interesting -
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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          João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
          >>Prometheus was also called Ithax (<*idh-nk- "to burn"). This seems to be a
          good candidate for the older IE name of Prometheus, since he had strong
          links to the PIE fire-god, messenger and trickster.

          That looks very interesting - I'd not come across it before. Would you have
          a reference?

          Ravi Chaudhary wrote:
          >>What is the Date of the Greek legend acording to Graves or anyone
          else ?

          AFAIK, the earliest account of Prometheus and Epithemeus appears in Hesiod's
          "Works and Days"; Hesiod's dates are believed to be 8th cent. BC.

          Ravi Chaudhary wrote:
          >>Why would the PIE fire god be taken as a messenger and trickster ??

          João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
          >>Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many common
          traits.

          Prometheus and Agni have often been compared, of course, because of the
          supposed common connection with fire. I suppose that Loki and Prometheus
          share the fate of being trapped for a long time by means of a rock.

          Jean Kelly
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... From: Jean Kelly To: Cybalist Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Pramantha/Prometheus: a false etymology? ... ... and in Hesiod s
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jean Kelly
            To: Cybalist
            Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:43 PM
            Subject: Re: [tied] Pramantha/Prometheus: a false etymology?


            > AFAIK, the earliest account of Prometheus and Epithemeus appears in Hesiod's "Works and Days"; Hesiod's dates are believed to be 8th cent. BC.

            ... and in Hesiod's _Theogony_, of course. Prometheus was also known to Aesop in the 6th c. BC. Aeschylus' Promethean trilogy, where the myth was further elaborated, was written in the early 5th c. BC.

            Piotr
          • João Simões Lopes Filho
            KARL KERENYI - Die Mythologie der Griechen - Band I: Die Götter-und Menschleitsgesichten (Portuguese translation), chapter XIII (he cites Hesychius
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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              KARL KERENYI - Die Mythologie der Griechen - Band I: Die Götter-und
              Menschleitsgesichten (Portuguese translation), chapter XIII (he cites
              Hesychius Lexicographus as source).

              Joao SL
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jean Kelly <jeffcob@...>
              To: Cybalist <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 9:43 AM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Pramantha/Prometheus: a false etymology?


              > João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
              > >>Prometheus was also called Ithax (<*idh-nk- "to burn"). This seems to be
              a
              > good candidate for the older IE name of Prometheus, since he had strong
              > links to the PIE fire-god, messenger and trickster.
              >
              > That looks very interesting - I'd not come across it before. Would you
              have
              > a reference?
              >
              > Ravi Chaudhary wrote:
              > >>What is the Date of the Greek legend acording to Graves or anyone
              > else ?
              >
              > AFAIK, the earliest account of Prometheus and Epithemeus appears in
              Hesiod's
              > "Works and Days"; Hesiod's dates are believed to be 8th cent. BC.
              >
              > Ravi Chaudhary wrote:
              > >>Why would the PIE fire god be taken as a messenger and trickster ??
              >
              > João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
              > >>Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many common
              > traits.
              >
              > Prometheus and Agni have often been compared, of course, because of the
              > supposed common connection with fire. I suppose that Loki and Prometheus
              > share the fate of being trapped for a long time by means of a rock.
              >
              > Jean Kelly
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Ravi Chaudhary
              ... common traits. Prometheus and Agni have often been compared, of course, because of the supposed common connection with fire. I suppose that Loki and
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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                --- In cybalist@y..., "Jean Kelly" <jeffcob@o...> wrote:
                > João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:

                Ravi Chaudhary wrote:
                >>Why would the PIE fire god be taken as a messenger and trickster ??

                João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
                >>Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many
                common
                traits.

                Prometheus and Agni have often been compared, of course, because of
                the
                supposed common connection with fire. I suppose that Loki and
                Prometheus
                share the fate of being trapped for a long time by means of a rock.

                Jean Kelly
                *********

                None of this gives any suggestion of why Loki, Promotheus and Agni
                would be thought of as
                messengers and more especially tricksters.??


                besides you probaly need to understanf how Agni is seen from our
                world view.

                Agni literally Fire, is the symbolism ofthe force of creation
                , the creator himself.

                The lighting of the fire or rather the burning flame, acts as a
                medium to the creator, and is also the creator itself, the cycle of
                creation and destruction, the cosmic dance ,the eternal cycle.

                To Talk of a Fire -God, is meaningless, like talking of a thunder god
                or a god of cattle.

                Agni( fire) is the supreme God and the medium to the God the creator.

                The rest become spin offs.

                Thus in the vedic/ hindu concept we find Shiva,the supreme god of
                Creation and destruction, the eternal cycle again, oft represented as
                a pillar of Fire.

                Loki fits into another mode, a trickser, a prankster, and how you
                would relate him to Promotheus I would like to know.


                Ravi
              • Glen Gordon
                ... Perhaps I can help. I try to think, whenever I can, in neolithic terms because this is the mindset that we need in order to fully understand mythical
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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                  Ravi:
                  >None of this gives any suggestion of why Loki, Promotheus and Agni
                  >would be thought of as messengers and more especially tricksters.??

                  Perhaps I can help. I try to think, whenever I can, in neolithic terms
                  because this is the mindset that we need in order to fully understand
                  mythical equations such as these. Throw away any knowledge you have of
                  VCRs, camcorders and computers. Throw away anything after Copernicus,
                  in fact. We won't be needing any of that where we're going. We'll be
                  delving into the nether regions of prehistoric thought. Come, hold my
                  hand...

                  Now, in case you didn't realize, "fire" exists in all three realms of the
                  cosmos. It exists in the sky (ie: the sun), it also exists on land
                  obviously. It even exists in the watery underworld.

                  Since "fire" is the element that links the three realms together, it can
                  be seen as a "messenger" or "traveller" between worlds. Ritualistic
                  burning, then, can be seen as a means of communicating with the otherwordly.

                  On the other hand, there is the age-old saying "Don't play with fire". Most
                  of us have this primal understanding of the potentially harmful outcomes of
                  fire, especially when it is not respected. Hence, it is a "trickster" since
                  fire can turn on you at any moment if you're not careful.


                  - gLeN


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                • CeiSerith@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/1/2002 5:52:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... I m sorry, but I m not seeing them. What would you say they are? David Fickett-Wilbar
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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                    In a message dated 12/1/2002 5:52:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jodan99@... writes:


                    Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many common
                    traits.


                       I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing them.  What would you say they are?

                    David Fickett-Wilbar
                  • tgpedersen
                    ... derived from ... Feuers ... Manfred. 1962. ... Heidelberg: vol. ... Wissowa ... B.G. ... was. ... Greek: Forethought and Afterthought , respectively.
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 2, 2002
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                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Jean Kelly
                      > To: cybalist@y...
                      > Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 5:24 PM
                      > Subject: [tied] Pramantha/Prometheus: a false etymology?
                      >
                      >
                      > It's often been claimed that the Greek name, Prometheus, was
                      derived from
                      > Pramantha, a fire-stick [Kuhn, Adalbert (1886), Die Herabkunft des
                      Feuers
                      > und des Gottertranks, 2nd ed., Gutersloh: 15 ff. Mayrhofer,
                      Manfred. 1962.
                      > Kurzgefasstes etymologisches Worterbuch des Altindischen.
                      Heidelberg: vol.
                      > 2, 567 f; 578 ff.] But the theory has also been attacked [Pauly-
                      Wissowa
                      > Real Encyclopaedie Vol. XXXIII (i) (1957) p. 690. Roscher, W.H.:
                      > Ausführliches Lexikon der Griechischen und Romischen Mythologie,
                      B.G.
                      > Teubner, Leipzig 1884-1937: 3033-3034].
                      >
                      > As I'm not a linguist myself, I wondered what Cybalist's opinion
                      was.
                      >
                      > Jean Kelly
                      >

                      --- In cybalist@y..., Piotr Gasiorowski <piotr.gasiorowski@i...>
                      wrote:
                      > <prome:tHeus> and <epime:tHeus> are telling names in
                      Greek: 'Forethought' and 'Afterthought', respectively. The etymology
                      is obvious, cf. Gk. prome:tHe:s 'provident, thinking in advance'.
                      Skt. pramantHa- (derived from a verb meaning 'stir violently') does
                      mean 'fire-drill', but it doesn't quite match "Prometheus" formally;
                      nor does it account for "Epimetheus". The similarity, so cherished by
                      theosophists, is accidental, except for the <pro->/<pra-> part, which
                      is the same inherited prefix in both cases (PIE *pro- 'forth').
                      >
                      > Piotr
                      >

                      1) Did the "stick"/"stir" word survive in Greek?

                      2) If not, how can one be sure that the Greek Prometheus is not a
                      folk etymology of a forgotten meaningless word (and Epimetheus added
                      for systematic completeness)?

                      Torsten
                    • tgpedersen
                      ... trickster ?? ... god ... creator. ... as ... The name Loki has been compared to German Lohe, Sw låge flame (at least by Wagner, if not by more serious
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 2, 2002
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                        --- In cybalist@y..., "Ravi Chaudhary" <ravi9@h...> wrote:
                        > --- In cybalist@y..., "Jean Kelly" <jeffcob@o...> wrote:
                        > > João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
                        >
                        > Ravi Chaudhary wrote:
                        > >>Why would the PIE fire god be taken as a messenger and
                        trickster ??
                        >
                        > João Simões Lopes Filho wrote:
                        > >>Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many
                        > common
                        > traits.
                        >
                        > Prometheus and Agni have often been compared, of course, because of
                        > the
                        > supposed common connection with fire. I suppose that Loki and
                        > Prometheus
                        > share the fate of being trapped for a long time by means of a rock.
                        >
                        > Jean Kelly
                        > *********
                        >
                        > None of this gives any suggestion of why Loki, Promotheus and Agni
                        > would be thought of as
                        > messengers and more especially tricksters.??
                        >
                        >
                        > besides you probaly need to understanf how Agni is seen from our
                        > world view.
                        >
                        > Agni literally Fire, is the symbolism ofthe force of creation
                        > , the creator himself.
                        >
                        > The lighting of the fire or rather the burning flame, acts as a
                        > medium to the creator, and is also the creator itself, the cycle of
                        > creation and destruction, the cosmic dance ,the eternal cycle.
                        >
                        > To Talk of a Fire -God, is meaningless, like talking of a thunder
                        god
                        > or a god of cattle.
                        >
                        > Agni( fire) is the supreme God and the medium to the God the
                        creator.
                        >
                        > The rest become spin offs.
                        >
                        > Thus in the vedic/ hindu concept we find Shiva,the supreme god of
                        > Creation and destruction, the eternal cycle again, oft represented
                        as
                        > a pillar of Fire.
                        >
                        > Loki fits into another mode, a trickser, a prankster, and how you
                        > would relate him to Promotheus I would like to know.
                        >
                        >
                        > Ravi

                        The name Loki has been compared to German Lohe, Sw låge "flame" (at
                        least by Wagner, if not by more serious folk).

                        Torsten
                      • João Simões Lopes Filho
                        All of them were tricksters, messengers, and related to fire, helpers of mankind, rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I think the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 2, 2002
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                          All of them were tricksters, messengers, and related to fire, helpers of mankind, rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I think the role of Prometheus was superseeded by Hermes.
                           
                          Joao SL
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:58 AM
                          Subject: Re: [tied] PIE fire god

                          In a message dated 12/1/2002 5:52:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jodan99@... writes:


                          Compare the roles of Prometheus, Agni and Loki. You will see many common
                          traits.


                             I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing them.  What would you say they are?

                          David Fickett-Wilbar


                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        • Glen Gordon
                          ... Yes, shape-shifting relates to deceit or betrayal , which relates to the way in which fire can burn you if not careful. As well, one may think of Storm
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 2, 2002
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                            Joao:
                            >All of them were tricksters, messengers, and related to fire, helpers of
                            >mankind, rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I
                            >think the role of Prometheus was superseeded by Hermes.

                            Yes, shape-shifting relates to "deceit" or "betrayal", which
                            relates to the way in which fire can burn you if not careful.
                            As well, one may think of Storm chasing after Lightning (or
                            rather, heavenly Fire).


                            - gLeN


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                          • João Simões Lopes Filho
                            And there s also the obvious theme of Fire x Rain. The conflict between Storm and Fire gods can be seen in Prometheus x Zeus, Indra x Agni and Loki x Thorr.
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 3, 2002
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                              And there's also the obvious theme of Fire x Rain.
                              The conflict between Storm and Fire gods can be seen in Prometheus x Zeus,
                              Indra x Agni and Loki x Thorr.
                              And I think that some traits of these fire gods were transferred to the
                              Catholic Devil.

                              Joao SL
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
                              To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 3:04 AM
                              Subject: Re: [tied] PIE fire god


                              >
                              > Joao:
                              > >All of them were tricksters, messengers, and related to fire, helpers of
                              > >mankind, rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I
                              > >think the role of Prometheus was superseeded by Hermes.
                              >
                              > Yes, shape-shifting relates to "deceit" or "betrayal", which
                              > relates to the way in which fire can burn you if not careful.
                              > As well, one may think of Storm chasing after Lightning (or
                              > rather, heavenly Fire).
                              >
                              >
                              > - gLeN
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
                              > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • anthonyappleyard
                              ... The Hindu fire-god Agni does not seen to have been a trickster, from what I know of Hinduism.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                Joao wrote:-:
                                > All of them were tricksters, messengers, and related to fire,
                                > helpers of mankind, rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-
                                > shifting gods. I think the role of Prometheus was superseeded by
                                > Hermes.

                                --- In cybalist@y..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...> wrote:
                                > Yes, shape-shifting relates to "deceit" or "betrayal", which
                                > relates to the way in which fire can burn you if not careful.
                                > As well, one may think of Storm chasing after Lightning (or
                                > rather, heavenly Fire).

                                The Hindu fire-god Agni does not seen to have been a trickster, from
                                what I know of Hinduism.
                              • CeiSerith@aol.com
                                In a message dated 12/2/02 6:13:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, jodan99@uol.com.br writes:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                  In a message dated 12/2/02 6:13:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                  jodan99@... writes:

                                  << All of them were tricksters,

                                  Perhaps I am simply not informed sufficiently regarding Agni. In what
                                  sense is he a trickster?

                                  messengers,
                                  and related to fire, helpers of mankind,

                                  Most gods are helpers of mankind. How is Loki one?

                                  rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I think the
                                  role of Prometheus was superseeded by Hermes. >>

                                  Loki and Prometheus were both unworshipped, and both outsiders to the
                                  great gods. Agni, on the other hand, was of course worshipped intensely as
                                  one of the highest of the gods. I am willing to admit the possibility of a
                                  connection between the first two, but Agni does not seem to me to fit into
                                  this pattern. At the very least, I find it hard to understand how a god of
                                  fire could, in the IE world, be so "demoted" that he would become
                                  unworshipped, be an outsider, and be so difficult to identify.

                                  David Fickett-Wilbar
                                • João Simões Lopes Filho
                                  The fire-god traits in Loki were contaminated by another traits of a kind of deity like Greek Ares and Ossetic Syrdon (in this case nor a deity, but an epic
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                    The fire-god traits in Loki were "contaminated" by another traits of a kind
                                    of deity like Greek Ares and Ossetic Syrdon (in this case nor a deity, but
                                    an epic encarnation).

                                    Joao SL
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <CeiSerith@...>
                                    To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:31 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [tied] PIE fire god


                                    > In a message dated 12/2/02 6:13:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                    > jodan99@... writes:
                                    >
                                    > << All of them were tricksters,
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps I am simply not informed sufficiently regarding Agni. In what
                                    > sense is he a trickster?
                                    >
                                    > messengers,
                                    > and related to fire, helpers of mankind,
                                    >
                                    > Most gods are helpers of mankind. How is Loki one?
                                    >
                                    > rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I think the
                                    > role of Prometheus was superseeded by Hermes. >>
                                    >
                                    > Loki and Prometheus were both unworshipped, and both outsiders to the
                                    > great gods. Agni, on the other hand, was of course worshipped intensely
                                    as
                                    > one of the highest of the gods. I am willing to admit the possibility of
                                    a
                                    > connection between the first two, but Agni does not seem to me to fit into
                                    > this pattern. At the very least, I find it hard to understand how a god
                                    of
                                    > fire could, in the IE world, be so "demoted" that he would become
                                    > unworshipped, be an outsider, and be so difficult to identify.
                                    >
                                    > David Fickett-Wilbar
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • CeiSerith@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 12/4/02 6:04:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, jodan99@uol.com.br writes:
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                      In a message dated 12/4/02 6:04:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                      jodan99@... writes:

                                      << The fire-god traits in Loki were "contaminated" by another traits of a kind
                                      of deity like Greek Ares and Ossetic Syrdon (in this case nor a deity, but
                                      an epic encarnation). >>

                                      I'm confused as to the relevance of my objection that Agni doesn't share
                                      the most important characteristics of Loki and Prometheus. I am also
                                      wondering what evidence you have for this "contamination."

                                      David Fickett-Wilbar
                                    • João Simões Lopes Filho
                                      Because the main deities are complex characters, with a crossing of many influences. ... From: To: Sent:
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 5, 2002
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                                        Because the main deities are complex characters, with a crossing of many
                                        influences.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <CeiSerith@...>
                                        To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:29 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [tied] PIE fire god


                                        > In a message dated 12/4/02 6:04:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                        > jodan99@... writes:
                                        >
                                        > << The fire-god traits in Loki were "contaminated" by another traits of a
                                        kind
                                        > of deity like Greek Ares and Ossetic Syrdon (in this case nor a deity,
                                        but
                                        > an epic encarnation). >>
                                        >
                                        > I'm confused as to the relevance of my objection that Agni doesn't
                                        share
                                        > the most important characteristics of Loki and Prometheus. I am also
                                        > wondering what evidence you have for this "contamination."
                                        >
                                        > David Fickett-Wilbar
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • mrcaws
                                        ... In what ... think the ... to the ... intensely as ... possibility of a ... fit into ... a god of ... One possible connection- Both Prometheus and Agni were
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 5, 2002
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                                          --- In cybalist@y..., CeiSerith@a... wrote:
                                          > In a message dated 12/2/02 6:13:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                          > jodan99@u... writes:
                                          >
                                          > << All of them were tricksters,
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps I am simply not informed sufficiently regarding Agni.
                                          In what
                                          > sense is he a trickster?
                                          >
                                          > messengers,
                                          > and related to fire, helpers of mankind,
                                          >
                                          > Most gods are helpers of mankind. How is Loki one?
                                          >
                                          > rivals of Storm Gods; Agni and Loki were shape-shifting gods. I
                                          think the
                                          > role of Prometheus was superseeded by Hermes. >>
                                          >
                                          > Loki and Prometheus were both unworshipped, and both outsiders
                                          to the
                                          > great gods. Agni, on the other hand, was of course worshipped
                                          intensely as
                                          > one of the highest of the gods. I am willing to admit the
                                          possibility of a
                                          > connection between the first two, but Agni does not seem to me to
                                          fit into
                                          > this pattern. At the very least, I find it hard to understand how
                                          a god of
                                          > fire could, in the IE world, be so "demoted" that he would become
                                          > unworshipped, be an outsider, and be so difficult to identify.
                                          >
                                          > David Fickett-Wilbar


                                          One possible connection-
                                          Both Prometheus and Agni were instrumental in the institution of
                                          sacrifice(Prometheus' role in the sacrifice at Mecone)

                                          Cort Williams
                                        • Ravi Chaudhary
                                          ... many ... traits of a ... deity, ... doesn t ... also ... http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 6, 2002
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In cybalist@y..., João Simões Lopes Filho <jodan99@u...> wrote:
                                            > Because the main deities are complex characters, with a crossing of
                                            many
                                            > influences.
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: <CeiSerith@a...>
                                            > To: <cybalist@y...>
                                            > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:29 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [tied] PIE fire god
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > In a message dated 12/4/02 6:04:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                            > > jodan99@u... writes:
                                            > >
                                            > > << The fire-god traits in Loki were "contaminated" by another
                                            traits of a
                                            > kind
                                            > > of deity like Greek Ares and Ossetic Syrdon (in this case nor a
                                            deity,
                                            > but
                                            > > an epic encarnation). >>
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm confused as to the relevance of my objection that Agni
                                            doesn't
                                            > share
                                            > > the most important characteristics of Loki and Prometheus. I am
                                            also
                                            > > wondering what evidence you have for this "contamination."
                                            > >
                                            > > David Fickett-Wilbar
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > >
                                            > >
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