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Re: [tied] Re: PK

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  • Miguel Carrasquer
    On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:46:51 -0000, richardwordingham ... Nostratic evidence is hard to come by, and even if found not likely to convince many people. PIE
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 2, 2002
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      On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:46:51 -0000, "richardwordingham"
      <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

      >*pW seems an ill-supported, but neat idea. The Germanic evidence
      >could simply indicate that the merger xW > f (or, if earlier, kW > p)
      >started but soon halted. In Germanic it could easily spread word by
      >word. To demonstrate it, we'd need evidence in another IE group, or
      >Nostratic evidence for a labial instead of a guttural in these
      >words. The non-Germanic parallels seem weak, and the Germanic
      >inconsistencies point to a sporadic change. (But then Pre-Germanic
      >*pW > *p may also have been sporadic.) I find it had to believe that
      >the Nostratic evidence could be strong, even if the theory be
      >correct. So far I think *pW is not proven.

      Nostratic evidence is hard to come by, and even if found not likely to convince
      many people. PIE *ye:kWr "liver", pre-PIE **lyé:pWn.t < **lí:punt can be
      compared to words for "spleen" in Cushitic (Afar ale'fu:, pl. a'lefit); Chadic
      (Angas lap); Uralic (Cheremis lep(a), Votyak lup, Zyryene lOp, Saami *dapde,
      Teryugan Ostyak LAp&tne, Hung. lép, Forest nenets Laps'a) and Tungus (Orok
      lipc^e): Dolgopol'skij #104), while PIE *kWétwor- "four", pre-PIE **pWét-wa:r- <
      **pút- can be compared to Afro-Asiatic *p.ut.-/*?a-p.t.- "four" (Chadic *fud.u,
      Eg. ?ftaw, Beja fad.-ig, Somali ?afar, Semitic (with metathesis) *?arb-a3-).
      Convinced? I didn't think so.

      =======================
      Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
      mcv@...
    • Miguel Carrasquer
      ... Much later. A Dutch soundlaw ft xt (gracht
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 2, 2002
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        On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:57:42 -0000, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

        >Any relation of lucht/Luft, or is that later?

        Much later. A Dutch soundlaw ft > xt (gracht < graft, lucht < luft, kracht <
        kraft, zacht < sa~ft, etc.)

        =======================
        Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
        mcv@...
      • richardwordingham
        ... could simply indicate that the merger xW f (or, if earlier, kW p) started but soon halted. In Germanic it could easily spread word by word. To
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 2, 2002
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          Richard Wordingham wrote:
          >> *pW seems an ill-supported, but neat idea. The Germanic evidence
          could simply indicate that the merger xW > f (or, if earlier, kW > p)
          started but soon halted. In Germanic it could easily spread word by
          word. To demonstrate it, we'd need evidence in another IE group, or
          Nostratic evidence for a labial instead of a guttural in these
          words. The non-Germanic parallels seem weak, and the Germanic
          inconsistencies point to a sporadic change. (But then Pre-Germanic
          *pW > *p may also have been sporadic.) I find it hard to believe
          that the Nostratic evidence could be strong, even if the theory be
          correct. So far I think *pW is not proven.

          --- Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
          > Nostratic evidence is hard to come by, and even if found not likely
          to convince many people. PIE *ye:kWr "liver", pre-PIE **lyé:pWn.t <
          **lí:punt can be compared to words for "spleen" in Cushitic (Afar
          ale'fu:, pl. a'lefit); Chadic (Angas lap); Uralic (Cheremis lep(a),
          Votyak lup, Zyryene lOp, Saami *dapde,Teryugan Ostyak LAp&tne, Hung.
          lép, Forest nenets Laps'a) and Tungus (Orok lipc^e): Dolgopol'skij
          #104)

          Richard:
          What's the Afro-Asiatic reconstruction?

          The semantics are good.

          Miguel:
          > while PIE *kWétwor- "four", pre-PIE **pWét-wa:r- < **pút- can be
          compared to Afro-Asiatic *p.ut.-/*?a-p.t.- "four" (Chadic *fud.u,
          Eg. ?ftaw, Beja fad.-ig, Somali ?afar, Semitic (with metathesis) *?
          arb-a3-).

          > Convinced? I didn't think so.

          Richard:
          If the Afro-Asiatic labials are the same, and the ideas went from PIE
          out to Nostratic, it looks convincing. (I wouldn't be convinced if
          the origin of the idea were some mass comparatist matching labials
          and just picking out Germanic words when the other IE words did not
          match. In statistics, the way you do the sampling matters.) I'd
          like to see Piotr's demolition job. Or does that offer only apply to
          the dormant Nostratic list?

          To demonstrate IE *pW, the words for 'four' don't even have to be
          cognate! I think a loan between the ancestral languages is
          plausible. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

          Richard.
        • Miguel Carrasquer
          On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:43:41 -0000, richardwordingham ... What s an Afro-Asiatic reconstruction? :-) I have Ehret, and frankly, it s rubbish. Orel &
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 2, 2002
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            On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:43:41 -0000, "richardwordingham"
            <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

            >--- Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
            >> Nostratic evidence is hard to come by, and even if found not likely
            >to convince many people. PIE *ye:kWr "liver", pre-PIE **lyé:pWn.t <
            >**lí:punt can be compared to words for "spleen" in Cushitic (Afar
            >ale'fu:, pl. a'lefit); Chadic (Angas lap); Uralic (Cheremis lep(a),
            >Votyak lup, Zyryene lOp, Saami *dapde,Teryugan Ostyak LAp&tne, Hung.
            >lép, Forest nenets Laps'a) and Tungus (Orok lipc^e): Dolgopol'skij
            >#104)
            >
            >Richard:
            >What's the Afro-Asiatic reconstruction?

            What's an Afro-Asiatic reconstruction? :-)

            I have Ehret, and frankly, it's rubbish. Orel & Stolbova, from what I gather,
            are not much better.

            >The semantics are good.
            >
            >Miguel:
            >> while PIE *kWétwor- "four", pre-PIE **pWét-wa:r- < **pút- can be
            >compared to Afro-Asiatic *p.ut.-/*?a-p.t.- "four" (Chadic *fud.u,
            >Eg. ?ftaw,

            Correction *?fdaw (where <d> was emphatic /t./).

            >Beja fad.-ig, Somali ?afar, Semitic (with metathesis) *?arb-a3-).
            >
            >> Convinced? I didn't think so.
            >
            >Richard:
            >If the Afro-Asiatic labials are the same, and the ideas went from PIE
            >out to Nostratic, it looks convincing. (I wouldn't be convinced if
            >the origin of the idea were some mass comparatist matching labials
            >and just picking out Germanic words when the other IE words did not
            >match. In statistics, the way you do the sampling matters.) I'd
            >like to see Piotr's demolition job. Or does that offer only apply to
            >the dormant Nostratic list?
            >
            >To demonstrate IE *pW, the words for 'four' don't even have to be
            >cognate! I think a loan between the ancestral languages is
            >plausible. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

            True, borrowings will also do. The most likely source of borrowing, Semitic, is
            problematic in this case, however (?arba3u, with metathesis *?ap.t.- > *?at.p.-
            > *?adb- > ?arb-, and a what's the `ayn doing there?), while Egyptian (not
            likely, but possible) has *?fdw < *?ap.t-. The best fit is Chadic, but somehow
            a PIE-Chadic borrowing seems unlikely. I find it encouraging that there's also
            a plausible link between AA and IE "3": "PN" *tiláti > PAA *c^ala:c^ > Sem.
            *t_ala:t_ // PPIE *t^lát^ > *trét^- > PIE *trey- (ordinal tr.t-yós).



            =======================
            Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
            mcv@...
          • Glen Gordon
            ... Well, I dunno. Do people tend to milk their daughters where you come from? - gLeN _________________________________________________________________ Chat
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 2, 2002
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              Miguel:
              >Actually, given Indo-Iranian *dhaugh- "to milk", it makes more sense to
              >analyze the "daughter" word as *dhugh-h2ter-, [...]

              Well, I dunno. Do people tend to milk their daughters where you come from?


              - gLeN


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            • Miguel Carrasquer
              On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:28:36 +0000, Glen Gordon ... Daughters tend to milk their mothers. Cf. Grk. koura, We. hogen, Slav. de^va,
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 3, 2002
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                On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:28:36 +0000, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
                wrote:

                >Miguel:
                >>Actually, given Indo-Iranian *dhaugh- "to milk", it makes more sense to
                >>analyze the "daughter" word as *dhugh-h2ter-, [...]
                >
                >Well, I dunno. Do people tend to milk their daughters where you come from?

                Daughters tend to milk their mothers. Cf. Grk. koura, We. hogen, Slav. de^va,
                Lat. fi:lia, Latv de:ls, all from roots meaning "suck, nourish, milk".

                =======================
                Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                mcv@...
              • richardwordingham
                ... **pút- can be ... borrowing, Semitic, is ... Egyptian (not ... but somehow ... there s also ... *c^ala:c^ Sem. ... tr.t-yós). I was thinking in terms
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 3, 2002
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                  --- In cybalist@y..., Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                  > On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:43:41 -0000, "richardwordingham"
                  > <richard.wordingham@m...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >--- Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
                  > >Miguel:
                  > >> while PIE *kWétwor- "four", pre-PIE **pWét-wa:r- <
                  **pút- can be
                  > >compared to Afro-Asiatic *p.ut.-/*?a-p.t.- "four" (Chadic *fud.u,
                  > >Eg. ?ftaw,
                  >
                  > Correction *?fdaw (where <d> was emphatic /t./).
                  >
                  > >Beja fad.-ig, Somali ?afar, Semitic (with metathesis) *?arb-a3-).
                  > >
                  > >To demonstrate IE *pW, the words for 'four' don't even have to be
                  > >cognate! I think a loan between the ancestral languages is
                  > >plausible. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
                  >
                  > True, borrowings will also do. The most likely source of
                  borrowing, Semitic, is
                  > problematic in this case, however (?arba3u, with metathesis *?ap.t.-
                  > *?at.p.-
                  > > *?adb- > ?arb-, and a what's the `ayn doing there?), while
                  Egyptian (not
                  > likely, but possible) has *?fdw < *?ap.t-. The best fit is Chadic,
                  but somehow
                  > a PIE-Chadic borrowing seems unlikely. I find it encouraging that
                  there's also
                  > a plausible link between AA and IE "3": "PN" *tiláti > PAA
                  *c^ala:c^ > Sem.
                  > *t_ala:t_ // PPIE *t^lát^ > *trét^- > PIE *trey- (ordinal
                  tr.t-yós).

                  I was thinking in terms of the more recent date of 8000-6000 BC for
                  the Afro-Asiatic split, as discussed in
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/2612 . This would
                  allow a loan between proto-AA and an ancestor of PIE. (I accept
                  Renfrew's theory for IE origins.)

                  I'm beginning to have some qualms about liver ~ spleen. I was
                  thinking of liver ~ pancreas. Is the use of a word for liver to
                  refer to the spleen attested? I have a vague suspicion that
                  Thai 'tap lek', literally 'iron liver', might mean 'spleen', but I
                  can't find it in my dictionaries. Does anyone on the list know Thai
                  well enough to answer?

                  Richard.
                • alexmoeller@t-online.de
                  ... From: Glen Gordon To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Seeking
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 3, 2002
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
                    To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 4:28 AM
                    Subject: Re: [tied] Seeking Information Please


                    >
                    > Miguel:
                    > >Actually, given Indo-Iranian *dhaugh- "to milk", it makes
                    more sense to
                    > >analyze the "daughter" word as *dhugh-h2ter-, [...]
                    >
                    > Well, I dunno. Do people tend to milk their daughters where
                    you come from?
                    >
                    >
                    > - gLeN

                    [Moeller]Glen, Glen ... that rememebr me of the barbar and
                    Barbarella:-)))
                  • richardwordingham
                    ... related cultures, other than Celtic and Roman, whose societal ... classes/castes. There s always the Hindu caste system, which I believe started the whole
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 6, 2002
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                      --- In cybalist@y..., "Greaghoir MacIain" <greaghoir@f...> wrote:
                      > Does any one happen to know of any other Indo-European linguisticly
                      related cultures, other than Celtic and Roman, whose societal
                      castes/classes corespond to:
                      >
                      > 1) religious functionaries
                      > 2) warriors
                      > 3) landowner/merchent
                      >
                      > If so, what are the cultures, and what are the names of the
                      classes/castes.

                      There's always the Hindu caste system, which I believe started the
                      whole idea of this analysis:

                      1) brahmins - priests
                      2) kshatriyas - warriors
                      3) sudras - cultivators.

                      Check on number 3 - I may have got it wrong. There is a fourth
                      caste, but the argument goes that it doesn't matter. (I hope that's
                      not along the lines of, 'No one who really mattered was poor.')

                      Richard.
                    • guto rhys
                      Good, beer - one of my favourite subjects. to brew in Welsh is bragu - I don t know its etymology. Cwrw is beer (
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 7, 2002
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                        Good, beer - one of my favourite subjects.

                        'to brew' in Welsh is 'bragu' - I don't know its
                        etymology. 'Cwrw' is beer (<'cwrwf' < 'cwrf' <
                        Celt.'korma').

                        You'll also find the word used for a rather nice
                        Breton beer, brewed in Montroulez (Morlaix) called
                        'Koreff' (a revived medieval form).

                        I won't postulate any connection, certainly without
                        looking in my reference books - I'll leave that to the
                        experts. But I have long wondered whether there could
                        just possibly be a link. Guto

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                      • Richard Wordingham
                        ... Looking for this entry in Dolgopolsky s Nostratic Dictionary by searching for the word liver , I found quite a few case where spleen occurred as the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 6, 2013
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "richardwordingham" <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

                          > I'm beginning to have some qualms about liver ~ spleen. I was
                          > thinking of liver ~ pancreas. Is the use of a word for liver to
                          > refer to the spleen attested? I have a vague suspicion that
                          > Thai 'tap lek', literally 'iron liver', might mean 'spleen', but I
                          > can't find it in my dictionaries. Does anyone on the list know Thai
                          > well enough to answer?

                          I never got a reply that justified words for 'spleen' and 'liver' being cognate as suggested by Miguel (Carrasquer Vidal) in http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/14952 :

                          > Nostratic evidence is hard to come by, and even if found not likely > to convince many people. PIE *ye:kWr "liver", pre-PIE **lyé:pWn.t <
                          > **lí:punt can be compared to words for "spleen" in Cushitic (Afar
                          > ale'fu:, pl. a'lefit); Chadic (Angas lap); Uralic (Cheremis lep(a),
                          > Votyak lup, Zyryene lOp, Saami *dapde, Teryugan Ostyak LAp&tne,
                          > Hung. lép, Forest nenets Laps'a) and Tungus (Orok lipc^e):
                          > Dolgopol'skij #104), while PIE *kWétwor- "four", pre-PIE
                          > **pWét-wa:r- < **pút- can be compared to Afro-Asiatic
                          > *p.ut.-/*?a-p.t.- "four" (Chadic *fud.u, Eg. ?ftaw, Beja fad.-ig,
                          > Somali ?afar, Semitic (with metathesis) *?arb-a3-).

                          Looking for this entry in Dolgopolsky's 'Nostratic Dictionary' by searching for the word 'liver', I found quite a few case where 'spleen' occurred as the meaning of an alleged cognate of a word meaning 'liver'.

                          Moreover, I am now in possession of a copy of the Thai Royal Institute Dictionary. So I looked up Thai 'tap lek'. The meaning is given as _mA:m khO:ng mU:_ - 'spleen of pig'! Bingo! The semantics match. It's a been long time, but I think this confirmation is worth posting.

                          Richard.
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