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Re: [tied] obscure languages

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  • Glen Gordon
    ... On what basis is Kaskian considered related to Abkhaz-Adyghe? What is really known about the Kaskian language? - gLeN
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 11, 2002
      Geoff Powers:
      >Kaskian and also Hattic (the pre-Hittite language of Central
      >Anatolia) are now thought to have affinities with the North-West
      >Caucasian Adyghe-Abkhaz languages.

      On what basis is Kaskian considered related to Abkhaz-Adyghe? What
      is really known about the Kaskian language?


      - gLeN

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    • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
      Whilst I am a would-be Caucasologist with a passing familiarity with Georgian, I have little or no detailed knowledge of the North- West (Adygho-Abkhaz)
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
        Whilst I am a would-be Caucasologist with a passing familiarity
        with Georgian, I have little or no detailed knowledge of the North-
        West (Adygho-Abkhaz) Caucasian language grouping. However,
        V. Ardzinba has concluded that the prefixal structure of
        Hattic/Kaskian (there are a number of important assumptions
        here, most importantly that a large proportion of the vocabulary
        of Hittite is in fact 'Hattic') bear a similarity with Abkhaz and
        'Circassian' (Adyge,Kabardian, Ubykh) [Abkhaz is not mutually
        intelligible with Adyghe and Ubykh, the other languages in the
        group. Ubykh, which was a 'bridge' between the two branches,
        is now extinct, the last speaker having died in 1992.]

        Most of the original range of dialects (some refer to these as
        'languages') were lost in the diaspora following the mass emigration
        into the Ottoman Empire in the years after 1864 at the end of the
        Great Caucasian War.

        People of North Caucasian origin are referred to as 'Cherkess'
        in Turkey, but under Turkish law are not allowed to hold any
        legal Circassian (Cherkess) identity (as also the Kurds). Other
        sizeable groupings of Circassians live in Jordan and Israel.
        There is now a repatriation movement in favour of return to the
        North Caucasus, though it has been very slow to catch on.

        The arguments favouring Ardzinba's conclusions are inevitably
        complex - and we are dealing here with language groupings
        that are generally unfamiliar to those living in the West.

        If you wish to pursue this line of enquiry, I can recommend,
        in addition to the works already quoted, 'The Indigenous Lan-
        guages of the Caucasus (in 3 parts) -ed. Alice C. Harris
        [Caravan Books] with George (B.G.) Hewitt and Rieks Smeets
        as other major contributors. (I believe Part 4 is not yet available).
        Rather expensive books, I'm afraid! Most other research
        is available only in Russian or Georgian.

        In my view these linguistic theories must rely to some degree
        on the 'consequences' of the now well-documented Black Sea
        event. One might presuppose a pre-historic language group-
        ing which reached around the eastern shore of the Black Sea
        from the North Pontic area through ancient Colchis (W. Georgia)
        and the western ranges of the Caucasus to the Sea of Azov
        (Taman Peninsula). Toponyms suggest that this language
        grouping extended in pre-historic times into the Eastern Ukraine.
        Precursors of the Circassians were the civilisations of Sindica
        and Maeotia 7-4 centuries B.C. where there were extensive cultural
        and economic links with the classical Greek and Hellenic world.

        Alternatively, if one ignores the effects of the Euxine Lake 'flood'',
        there must have been long-standing ethnic, cultural and economic
        links between the north and south shores of the Black Sea,
        possibly ignoring (though this is unlikely) ancient Colchis (the valley
        of the River Rioni which is now W. Georgia/Mingrelia).

        I hope this information answers, at least in part, your query, and
        I apologise that I cannot come forward with more language-specific
        information.

        Geoff Powers
      • Glen Gordon
        ... Granted and I don t object with this view, but I m just curious what examples of Kaskian exist. As far as I know, Kaskian was never written. ... Again, I
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
          >Whilst I am a would-be Caucasologist with a passing familiarity
          >with Georgian, I have little or no detailed knowledge of the North-
          >West (Adygho-Abkhaz) Caucasian language grouping. However,
          >V. Ardzinba has concluded that the prefixal structure of
          >Hattic/Kaskian (there are a number of important assumptions
          >here, most importantly that a large proportion of the vocabulary
          >of Hittite is in fact 'Hattic') bear a similarity with Abkhaz and
          >'Circassian' (Adyge,Kabardian, Ubykh)

          Granted and I don't object with this view, but I'm just curious
          what examples of Kaskian exist. As far as I know, Kaskian was
          never written.


          >The arguments favouring Ardzinba's conclusions are inevitably
          >complex - and we are dealing here with language groupings
          >that are generally unfamiliar to those living in the West.

          Again, I understand this but how is Ardzinba coming up with a
          Kaskian glossary??? There are a fair amount of examples of written
          Hattic but not of Kaskian.


          >In my view these linguistic theories must rely to some degree
          >on the 'consequences' of the now well-documented Black Sea
          >event.

          My version is different. Basically, I suspect Hattic went around the
          _western_ shore of the Black Sea and once resided in the Balkans
          when the Euxine Event hit. I don't believe that this event caused the
          movement of the Hattic to Western Turkey however. Rather, I blame
          it on a Tyrrhenian expansion.


          - gLeN


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        • erobert52@aol.com
          In a message dated 17/07/02 11:55:55 GMT Daylight Time, geoffpowers@cix.co.uk ... Volume 4 in fact was published in 1994 before volume 3. I don t know if it is
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
            In a message dated 17/07/02 11:55:55 GMT Daylight Time, geoffpowers@... writes:


            If you wish to pursue this line of enquiry, I can recommend,
            in addition to the works already quoted, 'The Indigenous Lan-
            guages of the Caucasus (in 3 parts) -ed. Alice C. Harris
            [Caravan Books] with George (B.G.) Hewitt and  Rieks Smeets
            as other major contributors. (I believe Part 4 is not yet available).


            Volume 4 in fact was published in 1994 before volume 3. I don't know if it
            is still in print or not. Edited by Rieks Smeets, it covers the three Nakh
            languages and six minor Lezgian languages.

            Ed.


          • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
            Ed Thanks for this correction - I realised I had made a typo after sending the message! GP
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
              Ed

              Thanks for this correction - I realised I had made a typo
              after sending the message!

              GP
            • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
              Glen http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/AR/95-96/95-96_Ind_Soysal.html I m trying to find some other web references on this. I will post them as I find them. GP
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                Glen

                http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/AR/95-96/95-96_Ind_Soysal.html

                I'm trying to find some other web references on this. I will post
                them as I find them.

                GP
              • Glen Gordon
                ... No, no, Geoff! Listen! The Kaskian and the Hattic are two different peoples! I ve already found a small Hattic glossary at the library, hence one of my own
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                  Geoff:
                  >http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/AR/95-96/95-96_Ind_Soysal.html
                  >
                  >I'm trying to find some other web references on this. I will post
                  >them as I find them.

                  No, no, Geoff! Listen! The Kaskian and the Hattic are two different
                  peoples! I've already found a small Hattic glossary at the library,
                  hence one of my own webpages that I've provided for online use:

                  http://glen_gordon.tripod.com/LANGUAGE/SINODENE/ABADHA/hattic_glossary.html

                  I'm talking about KASKIAN glossaries which as far as I'm aware do not exist
                  for the very reason that Kaskian was never written. They were nomadic
                  people. Any words in Kaskian would by nature be hypothetical, but even then,
                  on what basis would they be reconstructed?

                  So again, I ask, how does one conclude that Kaskian is a language related
                  to Hattic or NWC based on any linguistic data? Why must the language of
                  the Kaskians be part of this grouping?


                  - gLeN


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                • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                  Glen My apologies for any apparent misunderstandings. I m fully aware that your original question was specifically with reference to Kaskian, and not Hattic,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                    Glen

                    My apologies for any apparent misunderstandings.

                    I'm fully aware that your original question was specifically
                    with reference to Kaskian, and not Hattic, though I was
                    unaware of your web reference, as I've been a member of
                    TIED for only a short time, and have not as yet worked my
                    way through the archive. The web-reference I posted was
                    the only link I've recently come across of research in the
                    area and time-frame in question - not much of a lead, I grant
                    you!

                    References in academic journals tend to be listed on the
                    internet as 'abstracts' only, and one very seldom finds the
                    full text of a relevant article, but I will keep looking, as this
                    is an issue I would like to follow through for my own benefit.

                    The Kaskians (also known as Gasga/Gashgash) dwelt on
                    the NE coast of Turkey and in the mountainous hinterland
                    to the east of present day Sinop. They have been linked
                    ethnically (and it is presumed that there is also a linguistic
                    link) to the pre-Indo-Hittite population of Anatolia from circa
                    3000 BC. As you have plainly stated there is no /written/
                    evidence for the Kaskian language or for the above conclu-
                    sion. My own slender resources do not cover this area in
                    any historical detail. It was for this reason that I referred you
                    to the various works listed.

                    In Ch.2 p.42-3 of a work I cited previously, 'The Abkhazians'
                    (ed. Hewitt), the Kaskians are treated as one element of a
                    linguistic continuum located around the south-east, east and
                    north-east shores of the Black Sea. This conclusion has been
                    reached on the basis of ancient toponyms and hydronyms.

                    A modification of this theory suggests either migration from
                    Anatolia to the NW Caucasus at a remote date or FROM the
                    NW Caucasus TO Anatolia. A positive link between Hattic
                    and NW Caucasian is already proven beyond reasonable doubt.
                    I personally support the 'linguistic continuum' model, though in
                    all honesty I have to confess to an inadequate knowledge of
                    the historical geography of NE Anatolia

                    One much-cited linguistic 'clue' to the relationship of the Kaskian
                    language is the presence of the toponymic/hydronomic element
                    -ps(y)- (= water, river in Abkhaz), e.g. Aripsa, the name of a city/
                    fortress in NE Anatolia, also the ancient name for the R. Chorokh,
                    which was Apsara, earlier still called Akampsis. The ps(y)- element
                    is also wide-spread in the area of W. Georgia I referred to, in the
                    hydronyms Supsa and Lagumpsa and similar. This suggest that
                    the original population of W.Georgia, ancient Colchis, was almost
                    certainly not Kartvelian in origin.

                    Assyrian sources state that Kaskians were still living in NE Anatolia
                    in the 8th century and only a part participated in any migration
                    to the NW Caucasus (if such a migration did indeed take place). Those
                    remaining are presumed to have been absorbed into later populations.

                    Archaeology also supports southern connections of NW Caucasians,
                    who are held to be the originators of the Maikop Culture.

                    References in other works - Diakonov, 1968, p.13: Gordeziani, 1975,
                    pp. 8-10: Inal-Ipa, 1976, pp.11 & 117. (I'm not aware that any of these
                    works is availble in an English translation, but you may come across
                    extracts translated into English quoted in other works.)

                    As promised, I will post other information and references as I find them.

                    Regards

                    Geoff
                  • Glen Gordon
                    It s not so much that I lack data to allow me to accept a Kaskian-NWC link, but rather it s the basic premise of the theory itself. I don t see a logical
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                      It's not so much that I lack data to allow me to accept a Kaskian-NWC link,
                      but rather it's the basic premise of the theory itself. I don't see a
                      logical connection at all.


                      George:
                      >[The Kaskians] have been linked ethnically (and it is presumed that
                      >there is also a linguistic link) to the pre-Indo-Hittite population of
                      >Anatolia from circa 3000 BC.

                      A cultural link doesn't allow us to assume a linguistic link.


                      >In Ch.2 p.42-3 of a work I cited previously, 'The Abkhazians'
                      >(ed. Hewitt), the Kaskians are treated as one element of a
                      >linguistic continuum located around the south-east, east and
                      >north-east shores of the Black Sea. This conclusion has been
                      >reached on the basis of ancient toponyms and hydronyms.

                      So the mere location of the Kaskians warrants their linguistic
                      link to NWC? Sounds kinda goofy.


                      >A modification of this theory suggests either migration from
                      >Anatolia to the NW Caucasus at a remote date or FROM the
                      >NW Caucasus TO Anatolia. A positive link between Hattic
                      >and NW Caucasian is already proven beyond reasonable doubt.

                      I've accepted this link.


                      >One much-cited linguistic 'clue' to the relationship of the Kaskian
                      >language is the presence of the toponymic/hydronomic element
                      >-ps(y)- (= water, river in Abkhaz), e.g. Aripsa, the name of a city/
                      >fortress in NE Anatolia, also the ancient name for the R. Chorokh,
                      >which was Apsara, earlier still called Akampsis.

                      How can we possibly assume that this -ps(y)- is of Kaskian origin
                      when you admit that it was never written? There's Starostin's NWC *bz&
                      however.


                      >The ps(y)- element is also wide-spread in the area of W. Georgia
                      >I referred to, in the hydronyms Supsa and Lagumpsa and similar. This
                      >suggest that the original population of W.Georgia, ancient Colchis,
                      >was almost certainly not Kartvelian in origin.

                      Yes. The Kartvelians came up from the south. So they were NWC in origin,
                      but that still doesn't connect anything with Kaskians.


                      >Archaeology also supports southern connections of NW Caucasians,
                      >who are held to be the originators of the Maikop Culture.

                      Hmm. But there was certainly a cultural link with the south because
                      of trade.


                      - gLeN


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                    • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                      Glen ... No, the link between NW Caucasian (Adygo-Abkaz) and S. Caucasian (Kartvelian) is held by specialists to be no longer sound, though undoubtedly these
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 20, 2002
                        Glen

                        > Yes. The Kartvelians came up from the south. So they were NWC in origin,
                        > but that still doesn't connect anything with Kaskians.

                        No, the link between NW Caucasian (Adygo-Abkaz) and S. Caucasian
                        (Kartvelian) is held by specialists to be no longer sound, though undoubtedly
                        these ethnic groups have lived in close contact with each other for at least
                        3-4 millennia. There is a stronger link between NW and NE Caucasian
                        (Nakho-Dagestanian.) Kartvelian is now thought to have evolved from a
                        'melange' of tribes primarily in the Kura (Mtkvari) Valley, with
                        Svan having separated from the rest of the S Caucasian group in the
                        2nd-1st millenium BC.

                        It has always been my understanding that, among linguists of all specia-
                        lisms, hydronyms and toponyms provide in most cases sound evidence of
                        ancient occupation of the land pretty much wherever you look in the world.
                        (Does that hold in the case of Amerindian languges, for example?)

                        If I recall correctly - and I have not re-read any of her works for a number
                        of years - Marija Gimbutas has a lot to say about toponymic and hydro-
                        nymic evidence. This topic must have come up somewhere in earlier
                        discussions within the group at some point, but I have not yet found
                        an opportunity to search for it.

                        If not, I think we have a starting point for a new thread!

                        I had a look at your web-site yesterday - some very interesting ideas
                        there. I know very little about the Nostratic argument, because I am
                        not a comparative linguist or by training.

                        I will probably add to this reply when I have mulled things over!

                        Geoff
                      • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                        Glen ... I don t think I implied that it was of specifically Kaskian origin; it is of /common/ NWC/Kaskian/Hattic (?) origin, hence the linguistic continuum
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 20, 2002
                          Glen

                          > How can we possibly assume that this -ps(y)- is of Kaskian origin
                          > when you admit that it was never written?

                          I don't think I implied that it was of specifically Kaskian origin; it is
                          of /common/ NWC/Kaskian/Hattic (?) origin, hence the 'linguistic
                          continuum' thesis.

                          [Kartvelian has 'tsqal-' = water, stream, e.g. Tskhenis-Tsqali (lit. 'horse-
                          water'), a river in W Georgia.]

                          > There's Starostin's NWC *bz& however.

                          bz(y-)/ ps(y)- are merely voiced/unvoiced variants of the same linguistic
                          element, cf. R. Bzyp in Abkhazia.

                          You mentioned in an earlier posting that the Kaski were nomadic; I don't
                          go along with this. They certainly were not nomadic in the same sense
                          that the steppe peoples were nomadic. The area where they dwelt in
                          ancient times was surely thick broad-leaved forest (as it still is in many
                          areas) so, unlike the peoples dwelling in the Caucasus range itself, they
                          probably did not even have flocks to move to and fro to seasonal pastu-
                          rage.

                          I imagine their life-style was akin to that of the (European) Albanian Ghegs,
                          who made a living largely out of brigandage and 'raping and pillaging' of more
                          advanced settlements (e.g.in the Hittite Empire), and also inter-tribal war-
                          fare at the very local level. I accept your definition of 'nomadic' only in the
                          very restricted sense of 'not having a sedentary mode of living'. (Remember
                          too, the horse had been domesticated relatively recently in the period in
                          question. They would have been very valuable livestock and hard to come by,
                          so the Kaski might have gone in for a bit of 'rustling' as well!) I don't know
                          whether the, admittedly much later, evidence in Assyrian sources has any-
                          thing specific to say about Kaskian 'society'. If my assumptions are
                          correct, it is doubtful whether there was ever any formal political structure
                          among the Kaski beyond the notion of 'clan' or 'tribe'.

                          The only evidence that we have in the Eastern Black Sea region for a 'king-
                          dom' in ancient times is Colchis, rather later in time than the period we are
                          considering. Here we have to rely in part on Greek myths (the Jason and
                          the Argonauts legend). In the late 1980's and early 1990's some very
                          interesting archaeological work was carried out in western Georgia by
                          David Braund of the University of Exeter ['Georgia in Antiquity', publ.
                          Clarendon Press, Oxford (1993)]. Ch. 1 of this work gives a quite useful
                          overview of the whole historico-geographical area, though the work deals
                          principally with the period 550 BC - CE 562. I have no information on
                          comparable archaeological work in NE Turkey.

                          Geoff
                        • jpisc98357@aol.com
                          In a message dated 7/20/02 7:08:45 AM Central Daylight Time, geoffpowers@cix.co.uk writes: The only evidence that we have in the Eastern ... Dear Geoff, You
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 20, 2002
                            In a message dated 7/20/02 7:08:45 AM Central Daylight Time, geoffpowers@... writes:
                            The only evidence that we have in the Eastern Black Sea region for a 'kingdom' in ancient times is Colchis, rather later in time than the period we are considering.  Here we have to rely in part on Greek myths (the Jason and the Argonauts legend).  In the late 1980's and early 1990's some very interesting archaeological work was carried out in western Georgia by David Braund of the  University of Exeter ['Georgia in Antiquity', publ. Clarendon Press, Oxford (1993)]. Ch. 1 of this work gives a quite useful overview of the whole historico-geographical area, though the work deals principally with the period 550 BC - CE 562.  I have no information on comparable archaeological work in NE Turkey.


                            Dear Geoff,

                                 You might consider the book Waffen der Bronzezeit aus Ost-Georgien by Konstantin Picchelauri. You will find that the area of Colchis was a rich metalworking culture with close contacts with the area of Iranian Marlik, Amlash, Talish, Azerbaijan and early Urartu.

                                I purchased my copy from Wasmuth.de

                            Best Regards,  John Piscopo
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                          • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                            John Thanks for this reminder and the book title (with which I am not familiar and which I should be able to cope with in the original as my principal
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 20, 2002
                              John

                              Thanks for this reminder and the book title (with which I am
                              not familiar and which I should be able to cope with in the
                              original as my principal qualification is in German Language)
                              and web links.

                              Yes, I am aware of the metal-working of the Koban-Colchian
                              Culture and Iberia and Caucasian Albania (Azerbaijan)) and
                              artifacts such as the ceremonial bronze axes. Details of this
                              cultural area are covered by David Marshall Lang in his work
                              'The Georgians' (1966), publ. Thames& Hudson (one of the
                              books in the Ancient 'Peoples and Places.' series - still very
                              readable and useful as a basic reference, if a little dated.)

                              However, we appear to have little precise information about
                              this area from the point of view of the social organisation of
                              those dwelling there in the period in question 2nd Millennium
                              BCE, though one may conclude, judging by the artifacts you
                              refer to that it had reached a degree of sophistication level
                              at the local level. I do not know enough about the trading
                              links of these cultures to say any more.. The second
                              millennium is, however, rather early for Urartu and I know
                              nothing of Iran/Iraq in this period (First Babylonian Empire?)

                              Regards

                              Geoff Powers
                            • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                              John ... Last evening I re-read a reference I have to the artifacts of the Trialeti barrow finds and the bronze-working cultures. It is clear from this that
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 21, 2002
                                John
                                >
                                > You might consider the book Waffen der Bronzezeit aus Ost-Georgien
                                > by Konstantin Picchelauri. You will find that the area of Colchis was a
                                > rich metalworking culture with close contacts with the area of Iranian
                                > Marlik, Amlash, Talish, Azerbaijan and early Urartu.

                                Last evening I re-read a reference I have to the artifacts of the Trialeti
                                barrow finds and the bronze-working cultures. It is clear from this that
                                these archaeological discoveries were not as early as I had recalled.
                                I was out by a good 500 years. Rather than latish 2nd millennium 1300-
                                1200 BCE, they are contemporary with Early Iron Age 900-750 BCE
                                and so, as you say contemporary with early Urartu.

                                The reference is in a book called 'The People of the Hills' by Charles
                                Burney and David Marshall Lang, publ. by Weidenfeld & Nicholson (1971).
                                Do you know this work? My hard-backed copy was obtained second-hand
                                about 6-7 years ago. Burney is the archaeologist; Lang is a historian and
                                linguist. The book has a number of black and white plates, but, unfortun-
                                ately, these do not always relate very closely to the text, and there are no
                                supplementary line drawings as in 'The Georgians',so that for the non-
                                specialist like myself the same section of text needs to be re-read several
                                times before one gets the gist of the explanation.

                                There is a good description of the Cimmerian invasions there also. I have
                                certainly always understood the Cimmerians to be Iranian; whether they are
                                distinct from , or merely another branch of the Scyths (Sakas) is debateable.
                                I am sure that it was the off-shoots of these two groups who moved into
                                Eastern Europe who interacted with the pre-Slavonic cultures, in whose langu-
                                ages there are many traces of contact with Iranians. Some would argue that
                                this occurred much later, and that the Sarmatians were the Iranians in question.

                                Geoff
                              • Glen Gordon
                                ... You misunderstood completely. If you look carefully at my website, you ll learn that I don t believe that Kartvelian and NWC are closely related at all and
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 22, 2002
                                  George:
                                  >>Yes. The Kartvelians came up from the south. So they were NWC in origin,
                                  >>but that still doesn't connect anything with Kaskians.
                                  >
                                  >No, the link between NW Caucasian (Adygo-Abkaz) and S. Caucasian
                                  >(Kartvelian) is held by specialists to be no longer sound,

                                  You misunderstood completely. If you look carefully at my website,
                                  you'll learn that I don't believe that Kartvelian and NWC are closely
                                  related at all and I even have family trees drawn showing the proximity
                                  (or lack thereof) between Kartvelian and NWC under the "Origin of Language"
                                  link.

                                  "They" in my second sentence doesn't refer to the Kartvelians. It refers to
                                  the topo/hydronyms. Kartvelian is classified as a Nostratic language while
                                  NWC is not. I meant that the Kartvelians (of non-NWC relation) came from the
                                  south into the Caucasus.

                                  Again however, what does this have to do with Kaskians?


                                  - gLeN


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                                • Glen Gordon
                                  ... Whether you claim it to be Kaskian or you claim it to be of NWC/Kaskian/Hattic origin, you re still making a fatal assumption that Kaskian is implicated
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 22, 2002
                                    Geoff:
                                    >I don't think I implied that it was of specifically Kaskian origin; it is
                                    >of /common/ NWC/Kaskian/Hattic (?) origin, hence the 'linguistic
                                    >continuum' thesis.

                                    Whether you claim it to be Kaskian or you claim it to be of
                                    "NWC/Kaskian/Hattic" origin, you're still making a fatal assumption that
                                    Kaskian is implicated in all of this. What gives you this impression?
                                    (And how many times do I have to ask this question before I get frustrated
                                    by your suspicious lack of clear response?)


                                    - gLeN


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                                  • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                                    Glen ... The assumptions are not mine; they are a digest of the findings and assumptions of specialists in this academic field, who have a far more intimate
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
                                      Glen

                                      > Whether you claim it to be Kaskian or you claim it to be of
                                      > "NWC/Kaskian/Hattic" origin, you're still making a fatal assumption that
                                      > Kaskian is implicated in all of this. What gives you this impression?
                                      > (And how many times do I have to ask this question before I get
                                      > frustrated by your suspicious lack of clear response?)


                                      The assumptions are not mine; they are a digest of the findings and
                                      assumptions of specialists in this academic field, who have a far more
                                      intimate knowledge of the area through historical and geographical
                                      time than either of us. What they do /not/ do is to subscribe to or try
                                      to fit these findings around any pre-conceived Nostratic theory.

                                      Necessarily, given the time span we are dealing with, the concrete
                                      answers are not there, and probably never will be there, given the present
                                      state of knowledge. In all of this there is an element of 'best guess'.
                                      Their thinking, however, is no more speculative than elements of Nostratic
                                      theory.

                                      Can you disprove that the use of toponyms/hydronyms is relevant? Topo-
                                      nyms and hydronyms don't 'travel' in my experience - that is why they are
                                      so valuable as evidence of earliest, if not autochthonous, occupation of the
                                      land. As I said elsewhere, it is my understanding that they form a basic
                                      tool for linguists world-wide. What alternative reasoning would you put
                                      forward for the probable linguistic affiliation of the Kaski?

                                      I think it would perhaps be helpful if you could at least look at some of the
                                      references I have given.

                                      Geoff Powers
                                    • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                                      Glen ... No, the Kartvelian ethnos formed from largely autochthonous elments who dwelt in the middle reaches of the Mtkvari (Kura) east of the Likhi (Surami)
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 24, 2002
                                        Glen

                                        > I meant that the Kartvelians (of non-NWC relation) came from the
                                        > south into the Caucasus.

                                        No, the Kartvelian 'ethnos' formed from largely autochthonous elments
                                        who dwelt in the middle reaches of the Mtkvari (Kura) east of the Likhi
                                        (Surami) Range, though it is possible that some minor components of
                                        the later Georgian nation originated south of the Lesser Caucasus. Kart-
                                        velians later expanded westwards (hence Mingrelian and Laz). There
                                        is no evidence that Kartvelians ever lived next to the sea in the earliest
                                        stages of their development, which re-inforces the view that the coastlands
                                        were occupied by non-Kartvelian elements (i.e.ancestors of today's Adygo-
                                        Abkhaz group.)

                                        GP
                                      • jdcroft
                                        What appears to be an excellent source for unravelling this information is found at Tbilisi: Mematiane 2001 2001 Giorgi Leon Kavtaradze TWO TRANSCAUCASIAN
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 25, 2002
                                          What appears to be an excellent source for unravelling this
                                          information is found at

                                          Tbilisi: Mematiane 2001
                                          2001
                                          Giorgi Leon Kavtaradze

                                          TWO TRANSCAUCASIAN ETHNONYMS OF ANATOLIAN ORIGIN

                                          There are undoubtable data of the neighbourhood of the Armenians and
                                          the Georgians at least for the second century B.C. By the information
                                          of Strabo's "Geography", in consequence of the activities of two
                                          Armenian military leaders, Zariadris (Zareh) and Artaxias (Artashes)
                                          (father and son who subsequently became the kings of Sophene and Great
                                          Armenia), the Armenians took from the Iberians "the land along the
                                          side of Mount Paryadres and Cholarzene and Gogarene" (11,14, 5). In
                                          this case "the land along the side of Mount Paryadres" must be the
                                          territories south and south-east of the upper and middle flow of the
                                          Chorokhi (Choruh) where Parkhal-dag or the historical Georgian
                                          province Tao (Armenian Taik) is also located; Gogarene was situated on
                                          the upper streams of the right tributaries of the upper and middle
                                          flow of the Kura; Chorzene was located between the Mount of Paryadres
                                          and Gogarene or in the area of the Arsiani (Turkish Allahuakbar)
                                          mountains and Kola (Gol)-Artaani (Ardahan).This means that the
                                          Armenians conquered the Taoian territory for the first time in the
                                          early second century B.C.

                                          It would have been impossible to conquer Tao before, because only at
                                          that time the territories south and south-west of it, Carenitida and
                                          Xerxene, located closer to the core area of the contemporary
                                          Armenianans, were taken by them from the Chalybes and the Mosynoiceans
                                          (Strabo 11,14,5). The Chalybes and the Mosynoiceans lived
                                          mainly on the southern shores of the Black Sea; therefore it is clear
                                          that Strabo mentions in that case the southern parts of both these
                                          peoples who lived in the mountains.

                                          By the data of Xenophon's "Anabasis", the land of Chalybes and Armenia
                                          are evidently quite in contrast with each other (IV, IV, 18); as to an
                                          elder of one of West Armenian villages the neighbouring country, next
                                          to the route of Greeks, belonged to the Chalybes (IV, IV, 34). We must
                                          also take into account the information of another work of Xenophons -
                                          "Cyropaedia". As to it, the Chalds lived in the mountains, in the
                                          neighbourhood of the Western Armenians, and the latter apparently took
                                          away from them the fertile lands (///, 1-3). By the information of
                                          Strabo, the Chaldeans are the same as the Chalybes (XI, III, 19).
                                          Strabo also informs us that Carenitida, the region of the upper flow
                                          of the Kara-su (Northern Euphrates), had been conquered by the
                                          Armenians from the Chalybes (XI, XIV, 5). This event is dated to the
                                          first half of the 2nd century B.C. - i.e., later than Xenophon's
                                          expedition. Therefore it is possible to propose that the Chalds,
                                          mentioned in the "Cyropaedia", were the southern part of the Chalybes
                                          of the "Anabasis" and that their territory was occupied by the
                                          Armenians before Xenophon's times. It seems possible to consider the
                                          Chalybes mentioned in the "Anabasis" as the population of Carenitida,
                                          the northern part of the same East Anatolian Chalybean-Chaldian area
                                          which, as it was already stated, was later conquered by the Armenians,
                                          in the first half of the 2nd century B.C. At the same time, quite a
                                          clear and strong Colchian substratum of the Armenian language
                                          indicates linguistical connections in the much earlier period (See 33;
                                          18, 342-379; 1; 2, 45-61; 20, 103). Perhaps the above mentioned
                                          Chalds, inhabitants of the southern part of the Chalybean-
                                          Chaldean area, were responsible for such Armenian-Colchian
                                          linguistical parallels.

                                          The Armenian - southern Colchian contacts of the Early Medieval period
                                          are depicted in the Armenian chronicles. The Armenian king Pap (by
                                          the words of the Armenian historian of the 5th century, P'awstos
                                          Biwzand) informs about the representative of the Mamikonean family,
                                          Musegh, that "his ancestors abandoned their kingdom in the realm of
                                          the Tzenk and came to our ancestors" (V, iv). In his letter to the
                                          king Varazdat, cited by the same historian, Musegh's brother Manuel
                                          informs that "our ancestors were the kings in the realm of the Tzenk.
                                          And on account of quarrels /between/ *brothers and because much blood
                                          flowed, we set out to seek a haven and settled /here/. The first
                                          Arsakuni kings knew who we were and whence /we came/..." (V, xxxvii).
                                          Moses Xorenac'i interpreted the Tzenk as China (II, lxxxi), but
                                          already P'awstos Biwzand wrote that the realm of Mamikoneans was the
                                          realm of Taik (IV, ii), the strongholds of Taik (III, xviii) and that
                                          the district of Tayk was their own district (IV, xviii). By the
                                          information of P'awstos', the impregnable castle of Mamikoneans was
                                          called Eraxani (IV, xviii). Eraxani was located in the vicinity of the
                                          modem town Erkinis on the east bank of the Choruh north of its
                                          junction with the Oltu cayi (10, 462). As to the Georgian tradition
                                          the territory north of the junction of the Chorokhi and the Oltisis
                                          tskali is known under the name of Tzak. It had still the same
                                          in the first part of the eighteenth century in the "Geography of
                                          Georgia" of Vakhushti Batonishvili. In the "Geography of Armenia" by
                                          an anonymous author of the 7th century A.D. this territory was
                                          mentioned under the name Tzakatk (V, 22, xiii). Both these terms,
                                          Tzenk and Tzak, seem to be connected with the etnonyme Tzani. In
                                          accordance with the "Geography of Armenia" and Moses Xorenac'i, Tzanik
                                          appears to be the same as Khaltik (Chaldea) (II, 76). Chaldea is an
                                          old name of the land of the Lazians. By the above Strabo's statement,
                                          the Chalybes were known at his times under the name of Chaldeans (XI,
                                          III, 19) and Carenitida - the land located immediately south
                                          of Tao - was taken by the Armenians from Chalybes (11 ,14, 5). By the
                                          "Geography of Armenia", Tzaniw, which is Xaltik, together with
                                          Marniwliw, Egrewikiw and Xaziw belongs to the Eger, which is Colchis
                                          (V, 19), though Tayk is bordering Eger (V, 22). Tao/Taik was extending
                                          southwards as far as the source of the Euphrates. On the right bank of
                                          the upper flow of the Dumlu-su (which flows to the south from the
                                          Dumlu Da?),2 the source stream of the Kara-su (the Northern
                                          Euphrates), is located the well-known medieval place Gurci Bo?az - the
                                          Georgian Pass. The territories in the north of it were considered by
                                          the Turks as Georgian (and after the sixteenth century as former
                                          Georgian) lands. But the connection of the Georgian tradition with the
                                          Anatolian world was much more far-reaching.

                                          According to the Georgian tradition, the main protector of Georgians,
                                          St. George and St. Nino, the Illuminatrix of Iberia3 (Eastern
                                          Georgia), were of Cappadocian origin. As to the information of
                                          Georgian chronicles, the name of the father of Haos and Kartlos, of
                                          the mythical eponymous ancestors of Armenians and Georgians, was
                                          Targamos. This information is obviously in connection with the data of
                                          the Armenian and Greek writers as to whom Torgom is the ancestor of
                                          the Armenians (Agathangelos, 76; Chor., /, 5, 9, 10, 12;
                                          Hippolytus, Chronik, 12; Syncellus, Chronographia, 49c) (See 22,
                                          88-94; 42, 74n.3).4

                                          Among all other Georgian tribes the Meskhs (the Moschs of classical
                                          authors5) were nearest to the old Anatolian (Hittite-Phrygian) world,
                                          and not only geographically. Josephus Flavius, the Jewish-Roman
                                          historian of the first century A.D., considered the Moschs, as well as
                                          the Iberians, as being of Anatolian origin. In his commentary to the
                                          biblical Mosoch he wrote that the Mosocheans were derived from Mosoch
                                          (Gen., 10.2, I Chr., 1.5; Isa., 66.19; Ezek., 27.13; 32.26; 38.2,3;
                                          39.1) and that they afterwards received the name of Cappadocians,
                                          though from the designation of their capital Mazaca it is obvious that
                                          the name of their whole tribe was the same (Josephus, Antiq., I,
                                          124-125).6 Scholars agree that later, in the Byzantine historiography,
                                          Cappadocians - the inhabitants of Central Anatolia - were the same as
                                          the Meschs (Moschs), a tribe of Kartvelian (i.e. Georgian) origin (24,
                                          233).

                                          Hecataeus of Miletus wrote already in the sixth century B.C. that the
                                          Moschs were a Colchian tribe who lived near Matienians (fr.188}.
                                          Another remark of the same author about the location of the
                                          Matienians' town Hiope in the neighbourhood of Gordies and about the
                                          Paphlagonian type of the clothes of the population of this town (fr.
                                          189), makes obvious that among the above-mentioned Matienians western
                                          Matienians were implied who lived near the Phrygians of the city of
                                          Gordion as well as near the Paphlagonians. Because of this fact, it is
                                          possible to localize also the Moschs in Cappadocia (23, 19-34).

                                          Some indirect indications about the presumable former homeland of
                                          Georgians outside the Transcaucasia can be deduced from Greek sources
                                          (Dion. Per., 697-699; Josephus, Antiq., I, 124-125; Euseb., Praep.
                                          Evang., IX, 41, 7) as well as from the old Armenian (Xor., II, 8, 77)
                                          and Georgian chronicles.

                                          Because of the data of the "History of the Armenians" by Moses
                                          Xorenac'i, the author of the fifth century A.D. (in reality the text
                                          is dated to the eighth century), and of the Georgian chronicles, the
                                          modem Georgian historiography assume that the origin of the Iberian
                                          (East Georgian) kingdom as well as the distribution of
                                          Hittite-Phrygian religious cults7 and the appearance of some new
                                          toponyms there8 must be connected with the expansion of Hellenistic
                                          states of Asia Minor or of South-West Georgian tribal (supposedly
                                          Meskhian) and afterwards they had become Cappadocians, but finally
                                          they once again were forced to remove to the north.

                                          societies (34, 47-50, 233). The Georgian tribe of the Meskhs lived at
                                          Classical and Medieval times in the Moskhian Mountains - between the
                                          upper flows of the rivers Kara-su (Northern Euphrates), Araxes, Kura
                                          and Chorokhi (Chorukh). Where, by the generally accepted opinion
                                          Arian-Kartli, mentioned in the ninth century's Georgian chronicle -
                                          the "Christening of Kartii" - as the former homeland of Georgians,
                                          must be located. This suggestion can be proved by the data of other
                                          old Georgian chronicles (21) and by the above-mentioned Anatolian
                                          character of the pantheon of deities of the Iberian royal court.

                                          In the opinion of Georgian archaeologists, after the middle of the
                                          fourth century B.C., especially after the breakdown of the Achaemenian
                                          Empire as a consequence of Alexander the Great's victory and against
                                          the backrground of the new political situation (the struggle of
                                          diadochs, the emergence of the new Hellenistic states), the
                                          distribution of Meskhs, bearers of Hittite-Asia Minor traditions to
                                          the north had taken place. Consequently a quite new culture was spread
                                          in the eastern regions of Colchis (Western Georgia) and in Iberia
                                          which had nothing in common with the native Late Bronze-Early Iron Age
                                          traditions (29, 312).

                                          Southward of the Moskhian Mountains, immediately southeast of the
                                          conjunction of the Kara-su with the Murat-su (Eastern Euphrates), the
                                          regions captured by Mušks in the twelfth century B.C. were located. 9

                                          By the Middle Assyrian inscription of Tiglath-Pilesar I, in ca. 1164
                                          B.C., the land of Alzi, alias Enzi/Enzite, the same as Sophene,on the
                                          lower stream of Murat, and the land of Katmukhu, in the valley of the
                                          upper Tigris, were occupied by Muški and their allies Urumeans
                                          and Kaskaeans.

                                          This fact makes it possible to establish a cultural attribution of the
                                          Mušks: the territory where Aizi was located, 25-30 years ago was
                                          thoroughly studied by the Keban Dam expedition. In the opinion of
                                          archaeologists the Early Iron Age pottery discovered there, in the
                                          Elâz?? region, and which must be attributed to the Mušks, has no
                                          connection at all with the Western Anatolian homeland of the Phrygians
                                          and reveals traits typical of the South Caucasian, North-Eastern
                                          Anatolian and North-Western Iranian materials (4, 98, 161; 39, 96f.).
                                          As well as the Assyrian written sources do not support the idea about
                                          the possible identity of the Mušks and the Phrygians, though there are
                                          indications that they were for a time under the supremacy of the
                                          Phrygians (see 36, 494).

                                          There are interesting parallels between the self-designation of
                                          Georgians - Kart-veli - with the initial meaning resident of the
                                          acropoles10 and the name of the eponymous forefather of Georgians
                                          (i.e. Kartvelians) - Kartl-os - on the one hand and the name of the
                                          Phrygian capital -Gordium ("town, stronghold"11) - and the name of the
                                          mythical founder of this town12 as well as of the Phrygian state -
                                          Gordias (Justin., XI, 7, 5; Arr., Anab., II, 3-5) - on the other.

                                          From the point of view of the problem discussed, attention must be
                                          also paid to an ethnonym designating a Phrygian tribe. The Old
                                          Phrygian Areyastis-inscription from Yazilikaya (Central Anatolia) of
                                          the first half of the sixth century B.C., dedicated to the goddess
                                          Kybele, contains in its first sentence the word vrekun. It is usually
                                          recognized as a nominative singular of an adjective/particle in
                                          *-ont-s, with the regular development *-ont-s > *-on- > *-un, and
                                          identified with a name of one of the Phrygian tribes - of the Briges
                                          or Brékun-s (12, 857ff; 35, 142ff; 30, 13f.). By the information of
                                          Herodotus Briges was the name of Phrygians before they came to Asia
                                          Minor from the Balkans (VII, 73).

                                          The ethnonym Vrek-un of the Areyastis-inscription reveals a connection
                                          with the Armenian ethnonym Virk (Wirk), Vrkan (Wrgan) 13 or Vratsi
                                          (Wraxi) which was used by the Armenians from the oldest times to
                                          denote the Georgians (the nowadays form is Vratsi) and Georgia (17,
                                          51; 14, 128n.l8).14 The difference between Vrekun and Virk/Vrkan could
                                          be attributed to the trait, typical of Armenian, to lose a vowel
                                          placed between two consonants (50, 565). At the same time, such early
                                          sources as Ghazar P'arpec'i's History of Armenia of the 5th century
                                          and Moses Xorenac'i's narrative contain the designation of Georgians
                                          as Vroy (Wr03) (see 45, 154f.).

                                          The possibility of the identificaton of the name of one of the
                                          Phrygians tribes with the name of Georgians is of a certain importance
                                          in the light of the special attitude of Georgian tradition to the
                                          Anatolian world. The fact of the Phrygian domination over the Mušks as
                                          well as the Anatolian character of the Iberian-Meskhian religious
                                          cults, could be taken into consideration to explain the origin of the
                                          Armenian ethnonym for Georgians.

                                          At the same time, the above-mentioned information about the conquest
                                          of territories located on the lower stream of the Euphrates and on the
                                          west bank of the Upper Tigris by the tribes of Muški, Urumi and Kaška
                                          is rather important for the explanation of the origin of the Georgian
                                          ethnonym for Armenians. As it is known from the same inscription,
                                          Tiglath-Pilesar I reached the territories of Aizi and Katmuhu by
                                          crossing the Kašiari mountains, the same as Tur-Abdin. At the same
                                          time, there is a reference in the inscription of Tukuiti-Ninurta I
                                          (1235-1198 B.C.) to the totality of the Kašiari Mountains as far as
                                          the land Kummuhi which is considered as the same as Commagene of
                                          classical times (on the right bank of the Euphrates; corresponds
                                          approximately to the modem Turkish province of Adiyaman) (13, 338).
                                          The territories along the upper Euphrates i.e. the provinces of
                                          Gaziantep/Adiyaman of the early ninth B.C. seem to be still occupuied
                                          by the Mušks (36, 493f.).13

                                          It is interesting that in the Georgian language the not quite
                                          respectful designation of Armenians (such a phenomenon is and always
                                          was quite habitual among neighbouring tribes16) was komekhi
                                          which was understood as a reflection of the Commagenian heritage of
                                          the Armenians (49, 42-45).

                                          In reality, Commagene was situated southwest of Armenia, but the fact
                                          of the connection of the name of Armenians with that of Commagenians,
                                          has a certain historical value. It is known that Commagene was a part
                                          of Armenia nearly till the end of the 3rd century B.C. (38, 31, 122,
                                          235). The name of its capital Samosata (modem Samsat) may have been
                                          the old Armenian *šamaj-šat (15, 8 If. no.407; 41, 751). It was
                                          underlined that Commagene, a country the kings of which were partly of
                                          Armenian descent, can be considered as an Armenian political
                                          formation, though we have little knowledge of the ethnic composition
                                          of the population of this Syrian state (14, 147, 294).17

                                          It seems more plausible to connect the name komekhi and perhaps also
                                          the toponym Kummaha with modem Kemah on the Northern Euphrates
                                          (Kara-su) (cf. 7, 385.). Kemah, old Armenian Kamakh/Kemakh - where
                                          kings of early Armenia had their royal necropolis, the center of the
                                          medieval Armenian province of Daranali - was situated in the territory
                                          of former Suhma, between the Kara-su Caucasus which are often
                                          characterised by such a disappearing of the dental consonants d, t or
                                          ?. Tuni=Uni, Tapiri =Apiri, Dvali=Vali, ?oreti=Oreti. It is
                                          interesting that in the History of the Armenians of Moses Xorenac'i
                                          Uti and Gargar are mentioned as offsprings of the mythical Arran (Xor,
                                          11,8), the eponymous ancestor of the Arraneans, inhabitants of old
                                          Albania, on the lower flow of the Kura.

                                          After a short period of the Seleucidian supremacy, the dynasty of
                                          Commagenian Orontides came again from that country to power in
                                          Commagene in 163 B.C. (36, 280; 38, 80f., 107,
                                          123, 195, 235, Tafel I). The king Samos of Commagene (130-100 B.C.)
                                          had an Armenian tiara as his headdress; his grandson's Antiochos I
                                          (69-38 B.C.) tiara was identical with the tiara
                                          worn by the Armenian king Tigranes the Great. This fact makes clear
                                          the position of subordination of Commagenian kings to Armenia (41,
                                          750; 52, 59; 43, 95).

                                          At the same time, the name of the country Zuhma/Suhma, known from the
                                          Hittite-Assyrian literary sources as a designation of a country
                                          located in Eastern Anatolia near Pahhuwa, Išuwa and Maldiia (25,
                                          234),19 is usually connected with the Georgian name for the Armenians,
                                          somekhi (see, e.g., 6, 190). The substitution between k and s is known
                                          in Georgian phonetics, and therefore the ethnonym somekhi is thought
                                          to be the later form of komekhi (49, 44). At the same time, it is
                                          difficult to exclude that komekhi is a later form of the ethnonym
                                          somekhi.

                                          It seems that Georgians called Armenians by the name of their former
                                          neighbors who lived in the territory occupied afterwards by Armenians;
                                          in such a case we could also propose that the Armenian designation of
                                          the Georgians was connected with those Phrygians who were presumably
                                          assimilated by the Georgian tribe of Meskhs and who, according to
                                          Herodotes, migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans together with the
                                          Armenians (VII, 73).

                                          Anyway, the Anatolian descendance of the Armenian and Georgian
                                          ethnonyms which were many centuries used by them to designate each
                                          other, are the evidence of the long, but vanished, Anatolian past of
                                          these two nowadays Transcaucasian nations.

                                          1 The fact that the territories inhabited by the Georgian population
                                          were included in Armenia becomes obvious by the information that the
                                          Iberian cavalry had been reckoned as the most
                                          formidable part of the armies with which Tigranes II established his
                                          oriental empire (cf. 40, 315).

                                          2 One of the main river of Tao, the Tortomis-tskali (Tortum Deresi),
                                          takes its course from the same mountain, but northwards.

                                          3 The Greek name for Georgians, Ibhroi, is connected with the
                                          above-mentioned Armenian ethnonym - Ivirk. If we correlate Strabo's
                                          information about the trade route to India through the Colchis and
                                          Iberia (XI, V, 8) with that of Herodotus (/, 104) who
                                          knows the route from Phasis through Colchis, Saspeires and Media to
                                          Persia and Indian Ocean, the identification of the
                                          Saspeires with the Iberians would become quite plausible.

                                          4 The name Torgom is derived from the biblical Togarma (Gen., 6.4,
                                          10.3; I Chr., 1.6; Ezek., 27.14: 38.6), and it is thought to be
                                          connected with the designation of the Cappadocian town
                                          Til-Garimmu, known from the Assyrian inscriptions which has its origin
                                          in the name of the former Hittite region -Tegarama (modern Turkish -
                                          Gürün).

                                          5 In the text of Eustates, Archbishop of Anriochia of the first half
                                          of the fourth century, as well as in the Chronography of the Byzantine
                                          writer Leon the Grammatikus, the name of this tribe
                                          is nearly identical with that of the Georgian tribe of Meskhs -
                                          Meskhinoi.

                                          6 By the information of Leo Allazius in the commentary to Josephus
                                          Flavius' above-mentioned fragment, the Meschians were a people known
                                          by the old authors as Moschikoi or Mosynoeci.
                                          At first they lived in the Pontic littoral

                                          7 According to some scholars, the old Georgian gods of Mtskheta like
                                          Armazi, Zadeni, Gatsi and Ga correspond to the Anatolian deities:
                                          Arma, Santa, Atis and Kibela (48, 45-50). It was
                                          noticed that the Georgian divine trinity - Armazi, Gazi and Ga (with
                                          Armazi as a supreme deity) - erected on the Mountain of Kartii, above
                                          the Iberian capitals - Armazi and Mtskheta - and
                                          described by the "Christening of Kartii", structurally repeated a
                                          model known from the Hittite-Anatolian world (11, 147-157).

                                          8 Among them the name of the Iberian capital - Mtskheta - which means
                                          the place of Meskhs (34, 111ff). It is interesting that the East
                                          Georgian mountain-dwellers are known to their
                                          North-Eastern Caucasian (Daghestanian) neighbours as
                                          Mosok/Masek/Mosoch (51, 22).

                                          9 The Assyrian-Urartian ethnonym muški corresponds from the phonetical
                                          point of view to the Greek ethnonym moschi (cf. 8, 15; 47, 111-118).
                                          At the same time, in the opinion of linguists,
                                          the form mosxi/musx represents a West Georgian (Colchian) equivalent
                                          of the East Georgian ethnonym meskh-i (44, 118-122).

                                          10 Kartii was the initial name of the oldest residence of the Iberian
                                          kings (34, 238f.).

                                          11 E.g. Manegordium - "the town of Mane"; cf., Hittite gurta -
                                          "castle" (34, 239; 9, 119).

                                          12 Gordium/Gordion is considered to be a contracted form of Gordeion,
                                          "the place or the seat of Gordius", presumably of Gordius who fathered
                                          the king Midas of Phrygia (37, 1148f.).

                                          13 This form (Vrkan) is testified by the Armenian historian of the
                                          tenth century, Ukhtanes (32, 115). In the opinion of G. Tsereteli, the
                                          similarity between Georgian (Iberian) and Gurganian
                                          (the south-east Caspian region) ethnonyms must not be considered as a
                                          mere coincidence (46, 102f.).

                                          14 In the opinion of Markwart, the Middle Persian plural form Vrk?n,
                                          derived from the Armenian plural Wir-k' and deduced from the
                                          Latin-Greek definition Hyrkani, was sometimes used to
                                          denote also Georgians (See 31, 80; 5, 126ff.).

                                          15 At the same time, an early eighth century B.C. Urartian inscription
                                          near Mush in the Murat valley still mentions the country of Urmeie
                                          (28, 232), perhaps belonging to the descendants of
                                          the Urumeans and the ancestors of the Armenians.

                                          16 E.g. the East Georgian Kartlelian and Kakhetian tribes designate in
                                          the same way each other as tetia and gagria. These names are maybe
                                          connected with the Totene (presumably the same
                                          as the Albanian province of Uti located on the right side of the Kura
                                          near the Georgian border and mentioned in Armenian chronicles and/or
                                          the country of Etiuni of the Urartian sources,
                                          between the lakes of Childir and Sevan) and Gargar (northeast of
                                          Sevan) - known from the Classical and Early Medieval times (cf. 16,
                                          270-275, 352f). The fluctuation of the type presented
                                          by Otene and Totene is typical of the ethno-toponyms of the Classical
                                          times of the Black Sea area and the

                                          17 and the Murat. This area, the western part of the Armenian plateau,
                                          is usually considered as original Armenian holdings (cf., Strabo, XI,
                                          14, 12; Xor., /, 10) from which they afterwards spread over Central
                                          Armenia into the Ararat Plain to the Lake Sevan (6, 192; 14, 17, 147,
                                          151).18

                                          18 The attempts to prove that the population of the country
                                          Azzi-Hayasa, supposedly located on the Black Sea littoral, were the
                                          ancestors of the Armenians because of the similarity of the
                                          term Hayasa with the ethnonym Hayk' - used by the Armenians as their
                                          self-designation - were considered by Diakonoff and Medvedskaya as "a
                                          severe case of the malady called Sirene des
                                          Gleichklangs" (7, 386f).

                                          19 It is interesting that the capital of Commagene, Samosata, was
                                          identified with Hittite Šamuha (3, 77-80), though it is now known that
                                          Šamuha was situated on the right bank of the upper
                                          Euphrates, near the confluence of the Kara-su with Murad-su, in the
                                          place of modem Samuka near Kemaliye (See 26, 2, 9; 27, 135, 140).


                                          BIBLIOGRAPHY



                                          1. Abaev, V. I. 1970. Tipologiya armyanskogo i osetinskogo
                                          yazyikov i kavkazskij substrat, in: Sprache und Gesellschaft. Jena (in
                                          Russian). = ?????, ?. ?. 1970. ????????? ?????????? ? ???????????
                                          ?????? ? ?????????? ????????, ? ??.: Sprache und Gesellschaft. ????.

                                          2. Abaev, V. I. 1978. Armeno-Ossetica. Tipologicheskie vstrechi,
                                          -Voprosyi yazyikoznaniya, 6 (in Russian). = ?????, ?. ?. 1978.
                                          Armeno-Ossetica. ?????????????? ???????, - ??????? ???????????,
                                          6.

                                          3. Alp, S. 1956. Die Lage von Šamuha, - Anadolu, 1.

                                          4. Bumey, Ch./Lang, D. M. 1971. The peoples of the hills, London.

                                          5. Chaumont, M.-L. 1976. L'Armenie entre Rome et Iran, in:
                                          Aufstieg und Niedergang der Roemischen Welt, 2.9.1. Berlin/New York.

                                          6. Diakonoff, I. M. 1984. The pre-history of the Armenian people,
                                          New York.

                                          7. Diakonoff, I. M./Medvedskaya, I. N. 1987. The kingdom of
                                          Urartu, - Bibliotheca Orientalis, XLIV, ? 3/4.

                                          8. D'yakonov, I. M. 1981. Malaya Aziya i Armeniya okolo 600 g. do
                                          n.e. i severnye pokhodi vavilonskikh tsarej, in: Vestik drevnei
                                          istorii,
                                          2 (in Russian). = ????????, ?. ?. 1981.????? ???? ? ??????? ?????
                                          600 ?. ?? ?.?. ? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ?????, - ??????? ???????
                                          ???????, 2.

                                          9. Friedrich, J. 1991. Kurzgefasstes hethitisches Woerterbuch,
                                          Heidelberg.

                                          10. Garsoïan, N.G. 1989. The epic histories attributed to Pawstos
                                          Buzand (Buzandaran Patmutiwink). Harvard Armenian Texts and
                                          Studies, 8. Cambridge, Massachusetts.

                                          11. Giorgadze, G. 1985. Xetur-armazuli "triadebi", - Mnat'obi, 1
                                          (in Georgian).

                                          12. Gusmani, R. 1958. Studi sull'antico frigio, in: Reale
                                          Istituto Lombardo di Scienze e Lettere, 92, Milano.

                                          13. Hawkins, J.D. 1980-1983. Kummuh, in: Reallexikon der
                                          Assyriologie und Vorderasiatischen Archaeologie, 6. Band, Berlin, New
                                          York.

                                          14. Hewsen, R.H. 1992. The geography of Ananias of Širak
                                          (Ašxarhac'oyc'), Wiesbaden. Beihefte zum Tubinger Atlas des Vorderen
                                          Orients, Reihe B, Nr. 77.

                                          15. Honigmann, E. 1923. Historische Topographic von Nordsyrien im
                                          Altertum, Leipzig.

                                          16. Hubschmann, H. 1904. Die altarmenischen Ortsnamen.
                                          Indogermanische Forschungen, Zeitschrift fuer indogermanische Sprach-
                                          und Altertumskunde 16, Strassburg, 197-490 (mit einer Karte).

                                          17. Janashia, S. 1959. T'ubal-tabal, tibaren, iber, in: Janashia,
                                          S., Shromebi, 3.

                                          Tbilisi (in Georgian).

                                          18. Kapantsyan G. A. 1975. O vzaimnootnosheniyakh apmyanskogo i
                                          lazo-megrel'skogo yazyikov, in: Kapantsyan G. A.
                                          Istoriko-lingvisticheskie rabotyi, vol. II. Yerevan (in Russian).

                                          19. ????????, ?. ?. 1975. ? ???????????????? ?????????? ?
                                          ????-???????????? ??????, ? ??.: ????????, ?. ?.
                                          ????????-???????????????
                                          ??????, ?. II. ??????.

                                          20. Klimov, G. A. 1979. Kartvel'skie yazyiki, in: Yazyiki Azii i
                                          Afriki, vol. III. Moscow (in Russian). = ??????, ?. ?. 1979.
                                          ????????????
                                          ?????, ? ??.: ????? ???? ? ??????, ?. III. ??????.

                                          21. Kavtaradze, G. L. 1996. Probleme der historischen Geographic
                                          Anatoliens und Transkaukasiens im ersten Jahrtausend v. Chr. -Orbis
                                          Terrarum, Internationale Zeitschrift fuer Historische Geographie
                                          der Alten Welt, 2, 1996. Stuttgart, 191-216.

                                          22. Kekelidze, ?. 1964. Chronique d'Hippolyte et 1'historien
                                          g?orgien Leonti Mroveli, - Bedi Kartlisa,(Le destin de la Géorgie),
                                          17-18.

                                          23. Khazaradze, N. 1984. Sak'art'velos dzveli istoriis
                                          et'no-politikuri

                                          problemebi. Tbilisi (in Georgian).

                                          24. Khintibidze, E. 1982. K'art'ul-
                                        • Glen Gordon
                                          ... I meant you as in people in general but whoever I direct the arguement to, I m simply analysing the logic of the premise. ... How can you be sure? I ve
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 25, 2002
                                            Geoff:
                                            >The assumptions are not mine;

                                            I meant "you" as in "people in general" but whoever I
                                            direct the arguement to, I'm simply analysing the logic
                                            of the premise.


                                            >they are a digest of the findings and assumptions of
                                            >specialists in this academic field, who have a far more
                                            >intimate knowledge of the area through historical and
                                            >geographical time than either of us.

                                            How can you be sure? I've seen some dilly theories put
                                            forth by "specialists" before. It's our job to question
                                            everything otherwise we'll accept something silly like
                                            that the world is flat.


                                            >What they do /not/ do is to subscribe to or try
                                            >to fit these findings around any pre-conceived Nostratic
                                            >theory.

                                            I'm not sure what is being got at here. Is this meant as
                                            a devilish stab? Are you suggesting that Nostratic has no
                                            basis at all? Do you have any knowledge concerning the
                                            Nostratic theory? All I mentioned was that NWC is not
                                            included in the Nostratic hypothesis for the obvious reason
                                            that it couldn't be more different from the languages that
                                            have been classified as Nostratic. There is little doubt
                                            that NWC is far removed from these languages. This doesn't
                                            mean that I base my objection to what you are saying
                                            entirely on the Nostratic theory at all. ???


                                            >Their thinking, however, is no more speculative than >elements of Nostratic
                                            >theory.

                                            I doubt you know what you're talking about. The premise
                                            of the Nostratic theory is a logical one. Granted the
                                            theory needs much more depth to it since we are dealing
                                            with something going back some 17000 years and naturally
                                            there are a lot of intricacies to cover and discuss, but
                                            this doesn't detract from the basic premise of the theory
                                            that certain language groups are more closely related than
                                            others. Like duh!

                                            This is a much meatier theory than one that endeavors to
                                            connect a language never ever written (without decendant
                                            languages to boot) via hydronyms and toponyms that can't
                                            possibly be proven to be Kaskian. There are so many holes
                                            in this idea that I'm very confident in saying that this
                                            theory is much much much weaker than the Nostratic
                                            hypothesis by far.


                                            >Can you disprove that the use of toponyms/hydronyms is >relevant?

                                            Why should I have to disprove speculation?? Do you see the
                                            bad logic here or must I elaborate? Of course, I can't
                                            prove that unicorns don't exist either! Goodbye reasoning,
                                            hello insanity.


                                            >What alternative reasoning would you put forward for the
                                            >probable linguistic affiliation of the Kaski?

                                            I have already suggested that the Kaskian could be
                                            "Semitish" descendants that journeyed from the Balkans
                                            circa 5000 BCE. But don't worry. I realise that this theory
                                            is no more superior to that which you mentioned.

                                            It seems that I think that people moved counter-clockwise
                                            around the Black Sea (that is, from the Euxine event onward)
                                            and you seem to think that people moved clockwise. Would
                                            there be any archaeological finds in Turkey showing
                                            movement either way?


                                            - gLeN


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                                          • tgpedersen
                                            ... Emmeline Plunket: Calendars and Constellations of the Ancient World: The resenblance, however, between Medo-Persian and Ninevite art is in many instances
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 26, 2002
                                              > >What alternative reasoning would you put forward for the
                                              > >probable linguistic affiliation of the Kaski?
                                              >
                                              > I have already suggested that the Kaskian could be
                                              > "Semitish" descendants that journeyed from the Balkans
                                              > circa 5000 BCE. But don't worry. I realise that this theory
                                              > is no more superior to that which you mentioned.
                                              >
                                              > It seems that I think that people moved counter-clockwise
                                              > around the Black Sea (that is, from the Euxine event onward)
                                              > and you seem to think that people moved clockwise. Would
                                              > there be any archaeological finds in Turkey showing
                                              > movement either way?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > - gLeN
                                              >
                                              Emmeline Plunket:
                                              Calendars and Constellations of the Ancient World:
                                              "
                                              The resenblance, however, between Medo-Persian and Ninevite art is in
                                              many instances so striking that some way of accounting for it must be
                                              sought, and those who are dissatisfied with one explanation will
                                              naturally look about to find some alternative suggestion.

                                              The alternative suggestion I would now propose is that _the
                                              progenitors of the Assyrians at an early period of the world's
                                              history borrowed Tauric and other religious symbolisms from the
                                              ancestors of the Medes_.

                                              In support of tis theory the following considerations are put forward:

                                              Tauric symbolism, if it is at all astronomic, points us back to a
                                              very remote date for its first institution, to a date considerably
                                              earlier that at which the existence of the Assyrian people as an
                                              independent nation is generally put. The symbolism already discussed
                                              must, at the latest, have been originated about 2,000 B.C. Of the
                                              Assyrians as a nation we have no onumental proof earlier than 1,700
                                              B.C.

                                              But further, in the symbol of Ahura and Assur, I believe an
                                              astronomic reference may be traced to the position of the colures
                                              amongst the constellations, a reference which points us back not
                                              merely to a date between 4,000 and 2,000 B.C. but rather, and with
                                              curious precision, to the furthest limit of the time period
                                              mentioned, namely to 4,000 BC.
                                              "

                                              The astronomical argument is rather long, I'll save that for another
                                              posting. It hasn't escaped my attention that the bull word, Taurus,
                                              etc, is shared between IE and AfroAsiatic only. Was it borrowed at
                                              the same time as the star-word, as the name of the zodiacal bull?
                                              Ms Plunket suggests that (the progenitors of) the Assyrians live for
                                              a long time as southern neighbours of (the progenitors of) the Medes,
                                              until they finally conquered their land and started worshipping some
                                              of their gods (Assur, before s->h in Iranian). How does this (if
                                              true) fit in with your Semitish?

                                              Torsten
                                            • geoffpowers@cix.co.uk
                                              Glen Thanks for your recent posting. Perhaps you will soon be able to demonstrate that you have been able to follow up the various references I have given you,
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jul 26, 2002
                                                Glen

                                                Thanks for your recent posting.

                                                Perhaps you will soon be able to demonstrate that you have
                                                been able to follow up the various references I have given you,
                                                so that we may continue our on-line discussion.

                                                GP
                                              • jdcroft
                                                Glen asked ... Yes Glen there are. In fact there is evidence of movements from both directions after the Black Sea event of Ryan and Pitman. At first though
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jul 26, 2002
                                                  Glen asked

                                                  > It seems that I think that people moved counter-clockwise
                                                  > around the Black Sea (that is, from the Euxine event onward)
                                                  > and you seem to think that people moved clockwise. Would
                                                  > there be any archaeological finds in Turkey showing
                                                  > movement either way?

                                                  Yes Glen there are. In fact there is evidence of movements from both
                                                  directions after the Black Sea event of Ryan and Pitman. At first
                                                  though the movements continued for a while to go in a south-north
                                                  direction. The EB I and II Yortan culture of Central WestAnatolia
                                                  seems to have influenced the building of Troy I and spread from there
                                                  into Bulgaria, Macedonia and up the Vardar Moravia Gap. In the east
                                                  of Anatolia, influences of the Zagros region are discernable at the
                                                  earliest stages of the Maikop cultures in Pontic Transcaucasia.

                                                  Then in the EBIII period the cultural influences seem to have
                                                  travelled in a reverse direction. From about 2,300 BCE Maikop
                                                  cultural influences seem to have determined the flowering of the
                                                  chieftain-type culture of Alaca Huyuk, which is the culture which
                                                  underlays the Kaskan area during the Hittite period of the Middle
                                                  Bronze Age. From the West we have a movement of cultures starting
                                                  from Roumania with the Usatova culture, producing a wave of peoples
                                                  moving across Anatolia over the next couple of centuries. This wave
                                                  of immigrants seems to have been fairly small, but they had big
                                                  effects. Troy II, Yortan and Beycultestan were all burned.
                                                  Archaeologists have long proposed that this wave was te coming of the
                                                  Anatolians, particularly of the Luwians, as it spread from the
                                                  Dardanelles to Cilicia - all areas in which Luwian languages were
                                                  later recorded.

                                                  There is a problem with the development of the other members of the
                                                  Anatolian family - Hittite/Neshili and Palaite. The problem is that
                                                  neither of these languages are well attested archaeologically.

                                                  This has led some archaeologists to suggest that they may have come
                                                  with the Maikop-Alaca Huyuk wave around the other end of the Black
                                                  Sea, as this is the only archaeological incursion that comes even
                                                  remotely near the areas in which Pailaite and Hittite were later
                                                  spoken. Another theory is that there was an earlier pre-EBIII slow
                                                  dissemination of Anatolian languages over the Bosphorus before the
                                                  coming of the Luwians. These people, adopting the Central
                                                  Cappadocian early Bronze culture, could have been displaced by the
                                                  movement of Luwians and thus carried Hittite and Palaite Anatolian
                                                  languages eastwards.

                                                  Another explanation is that the movement of the people from the
                                                  Bosphorus to Cilicia was not Indo-European at all, but was in fact an
                                                  incursion of the Tyrrhenians. They certainly were later found in the
                                                  north west of this area, if the associations of Tyrsenoi/Troas/Teresh
                                                  found in the LBIII period are anything to go by. Alternatively they
                                                  were a sub-stratum of the Luwian wave, just as Hattic was a
                                                  substratum of the Hittite/Neshili language.

                                                  There is much evidence that this was the case. Leonard Palmer
                                                  originally thought he detected a Luwian presence in pre-Greek Greece,
                                                  but there is a good alternative explanation for this. The coming of
                                                  the Luwian wave seems to have had huge effects, displacing refugee
                                                  groups to other locations. The Phylakopi culture of Cyprus, for
                                                  instance, shows extremely close associations with the earlier
                                                  Anatolian cultures of Cilicia and were probably a wave of refugees
                                                  fleeing the "Luwians". Similarly the settlements of Lerna in the
                                                  Pelopponesse, and a number of locations in the Cyclades in the
                                                  Aegean, show close cultural affinities with the previous cultures of
                                                  Western Anatolia, suggesting a movement of refugees fleeing across
                                                  the Aegean. This may have resulted in the appearance of Tyrrhenian
                                                  cultural imports in this area amongst the people later described by
                                                  the Greeks as Pelasgian. If this is so, then, as linguistics seems
                                                  to indicate, that much of the difference between the Anatolian
                                                  languages can be explained as being due to the fact that they had
                                                  different linguistic sub-strata. Luwian seems to have had a
                                                  Tyrrhenian sub-strata, Hittite/Neshili a Hattic one, and Palaite a
                                                  third - possibly Proto-Hurrian? or even Kaskan?

                                                  Glen that is about as much as we can infer from the archaeology. The
                                                  linguistics I leave up to you. But hey, are not you the fellow who
                                                  keeps saying that linguistics is not a part of culture, and so
                                                  cultural movements from the archaeological record have nothing to do
                                                  with movements of language?

                                                  Warm regards

                                                  John
                                                • matt6219
                                                  ... city/ ... Chorokh, ... element ... the ... Anatolia ... Those ... populations. ... these ... across ... find them. ... Apsara = water nymph
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Aug 11, 2002
                                                    --- In cybalist@y..., geoffpowers@c... wrote:
                                                    > Glen
                                                    >
                                                    > My apologies for any apparent misunderstandings.
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm fully aware that your original question was specifically
                                                    > with reference to Kaskian, and not Hattic, though I was
                                                    > unaware of your web reference, as I've been a member of
                                                    > TIED for only a short time, and have not as yet worked my
                                                    > way through the archive. The web-reference I posted was
                                                    > the only link I've recently come across of research in the
                                                    > area and time-frame in question - not much of a lead, I grant
                                                    > you!
                                                    >
                                                    > References in academic journals tend to be listed on the
                                                    > internet as 'abstracts' only, and one very seldom finds the
                                                    > full text of a relevant article, but I will keep looking, as this
                                                    > is an issue I would like to follow through for my own benefit.
                                                    >
                                                    > The Kaskians (also known as Gasga/Gashgash) dwelt on
                                                    > the NE coast of Turkey and in the mountainous hinterland
                                                    > to the east of present day Sinop. They have been linked
                                                    > ethnically (and it is presumed that there is also a linguistic
                                                    > link) to the pre-Indo-Hittite population of Anatolia from circa
                                                    > 3000 BC. As you have plainly stated there is no /written/
                                                    > evidence for the Kaskian language or for the above conclu-
                                                    > sion. My own slender resources do not cover this area in
                                                    > any historical detail. It was for this reason that I referred you
                                                    > to the various works listed.
                                                    >
                                                    > In Ch.2 p.42-3 of a work I cited previously, 'The Abkhazians'
                                                    > (ed. Hewitt), the Kaskians are treated as one element of a
                                                    > linguistic continuum located around the south-east, east and
                                                    > north-east shores of the Black Sea. This conclusion has been
                                                    > reached on the basis of ancient toponyms and hydronyms.
                                                    >
                                                    > A modification of this theory suggests either migration from
                                                    > Anatolia to the NW Caucasus at a remote date or FROM the
                                                    > NW Caucasus TO Anatolia. A positive link between Hattic
                                                    > and NW Caucasian is already proven beyond reasonable doubt.
                                                    > I personally support the 'linguistic continuum' model, though in
                                                    > all honesty I have to confess to an inadequate knowledge of
                                                    > the historical geography of NE Anatolia
                                                    >
                                                    > One much-cited linguistic 'clue' to the relationship of the Kaskian
                                                    > language is the presence of the toponymic/hydronomic element
                                                    > -ps(y)- (= water, river in Abkhaz), e.g. Aripsa, the name of a
                                                    city/
                                                    > fortress in NE Anatolia, also the ancient name for the R.
                                                    Chorokh,
                                                    > which was Apsara, earlier still called Akampsis. The ps(y)-
                                                    element
                                                    > is also wide-spread in the area of W. Georgia I referred to, in
                                                    the
                                                    > hydronyms Supsa and Lagumpsa and similar. This suggest that
                                                    > the original population of W.Georgia, ancient Colchis, was almost
                                                    > certainly not Kartvelian in origin.
                                                    >
                                                    > Assyrian sources state that Kaskians were still living in NE
                                                    Anatolia
                                                    > in the 8th century and only a part participated in any migration
                                                    > to the NW Caucasus (if such a migration did indeed take place).
                                                    Those
                                                    > remaining are presumed to have been absorbed into later
                                                    populations.
                                                    >
                                                    > Archaeology also supports southern connections of NW Caucasians,
                                                    > who are held to be the originators of the Maikop Culture.
                                                    >
                                                    > References in other works - Diakonov, 1968, p.13: Gordeziani, 1975,
                                                    > pp. 8-10: Inal-Ipa, 1976, pp.11 & 117. (I'm not aware that any of
                                                    these
                                                    > works is availble in an English translation, but you may come
                                                    across
                                                    > extracts translated into English quoted in other works.)
                                                    >
                                                    > As promised, I will post other information and references as I
                                                    find them.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards
                                                    >
                                                    > Geoff

                                                    Apsara = 'water nymph'
                                                    http://www.indiayogi.com/website/phase3/mythology/supernatural.asp
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