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Re: [tied] Stop horsing around

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  • caraculiambro
    ... From: Glen Gordon Date: Tue Apr 30, 2002 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [tied] Stop horsing around ... if I were an AA speaker
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 30, 2002
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      --- In cybalist@y..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...> wrote:

      From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
      Date: Tue Apr 30, 2002 8:32 pm
      Subject: Re: [tied] Stop horsing around

      > Elaborate. What possible reanalysis are you speaking of? I suppose
      if I were an AA speaker listening to a speaker of a Satem dialect say
      *ec^was, I'd probably hear it as **a-c^wase with a demonstrative
      marker *a- attached.

      That's what I mean. The AbAd languages (I prefer this abbreviation,
      because Afroasiatic is lurking round the corner) -- so, the AbAd
      languages love prefixes. In Modern Abkhaz 'the horse' is <a-
      c^:&>, 'my horse' is <sarra s-c^:&> 'your(f.) horse' is <bara b-c^:&>.

      > But still, the nominative or accusative, even the locative, would
      be most usually heard with the stem *ec^wa- and you'd think that this
      would be fused to the AA loan. The vowels don't even match either.
      How does *[a] become *[&] when AA speakers could surely
      have told the difference?

      I know too little about early AbAd to speak with confidence about
      patterns of substitution in protolanguage loans, but these particular
      substitutions are not unprecedented. Indo-Iranian short *a was not
      necessarily fully open, judging from its historical reflexes. At any
      rate, we have Circassian <s'&> and Kabardian <s^&> 'horse'
      corresponding to a later stage of Proto-Iranian (*as'wa-, with a
      fricative). Finally we have Khinalugh <spa> 'colt', this time sans
      doubt from still later (dialectal) Iranian *aspa-, and for all I know
      the Dagestanian (and some other) forms may be even more recent (cf.
      Khinalugh ps^i : Ossetic aefs^ae 'mare' from metathesised *aspa:).
      The correspondence problem gets even worse, anyway, if you want to
      make *ek^wos a loan from Proto-AbAdHa. How do you derive it in _that_
      direction? As far as I can see, there's no basis for reconstructing
      a 'horse' word for the whole AbAdHa group in the normal comparative
      way (I'm not even sure if a common AbAd reconstruction is fully
      justified). To begin with, you haven't shown any evidence that the
      Proto-AbAdHa sound corresponding to AbAd *c: (or whatever the exact
      affricate in the 'horse' word) goes back to an older (palato)velar --
      it's mere speculation.

      > Finnish and I had a chat and she tells me that the *-s isn't
      as "weak" as you suggest:

      > porsas "pig"
      > taivas "heaven"
      > marras "dead"

      A very good point, Glen. I should have thought of that -- silly me. I
      must admit that my suggestion doesn't work for archaic Indo-Iranian.

      > Finnish also has many examples of a fused IE nominative in other
      loans:

      > hammas "tooth"
      > kuningas "king"
      > ruhtinas "prince"

      > So if every other language borrows words complete with inflection,
      why is Abkhaz-Adyghe so special??

      Have you really examined "every other" language? "Every other" in the
      sense 'all the other' or '50% of' languages? It isn't difficult to
      find examples of regular inflections getting systematically deleted
      in loans. Even English often drops Latin -us, e.g. sine < Neo-Lat.
      sinus, and that despite Fr. sinus; cf. also Pliny, Antony, Livy, etc.
      with -y for -ius.

      Piotr
    • Glen Gordon
      ... Do you mean it was a schwa? If so, what was *[a]? There must have been *[a] in the IIr vowel system. - love gLeN
      Message 2 of 15 , May 6 1:34 PM
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        Piotr:
        >Indo-Iranian short *a was not necessarily fully open, judging from its
        >historical reflexes.

        Do you mean it was a schwa? If so, what was *[a]? There must have been
        *[a] in the IIr vowel system.


        - love gLeN

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      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        _Must_ have been ? Why not something like the system we normally find in Indic, where is an open vowel but short is phonetically a schwa? Piotr ...
        Message 3 of 15 , May 6 3:01 PM
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          "_Must_ have been"? Why not something like the system we normally find in Indic, where <a:> is an open vowel but short <a> is phonetically a schwa?

          Piotr


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
          To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:34 PM
          Subject: Re: [tied] Stop horsing around


          >
          > Piotr:
          > >Indo-Iranian short *a was not necessarily fully open, judging from its
          > >historical reflexes.
          >
          > Do you mean it was a schwa? If so, what was *[a]? There must have been
          > *[a] in the IIr vowel system.
        • Kevin.Gordon@t-online.de
          Hi! As an amateur I ve always wondered how we know the value for Sanskrit /a/. Is it simply the reflexes in the modern Indic languages? Panini s rule a a
          Message 4 of 15 , May 7 11:17 AM
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            Hi!

            As an amateur I've always wondered how we know the value for Sanskrit /a/. Is
            it simply the reflexes in the modern Indic languages? Panini's rule 'a a' does
            not contain enough information in itself and I always thought it unlikely that
            the ancient Indian phonetic descriptions were accurate enough to allow the
            conclusion that /a/ was in fact schwa. (I've never read Allen's Phonetics in
            Ancient India). And is the modern reflex REALLY schwa or is it more like the
            English 'u' in 'but'?

            Kevin
          • Glen Gordon
            ... Nifty. Is Indic pronounced as schwa in all positions or just most? If there is no [a] in contrast with [a:], how is the length maintained? Alright now.
            Message 5 of 15 , May 7 8:45 PM
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              Piotr:
              >"_Must_ have been"? Why not something like the system we normally find in
              >Indic, where <a:> is an open vowel but short <a> is phonetically a schwa?

              Nifty. Is Indic <a> pronounced as schwa in all positions or just most?
              If there is no [a] in contrast with [a:], how is the length maintained?

              Alright now. Considering for a moment that AbAd loaned its "horse" word from
              a satem term *ec'was, where could *ekwo- originally be from? I don't like
              unetymologized words. Could there be some verb root **ok- "to run(?)" that
              became lengthened to produce *o:ku- "quick" on the one hand but *ekwos on
              the other (via an earlier **?kwos with accent on the last syllable)?


              - love gLeN


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            • Piotr Gasiorowski
              ... From: Glen Gordon To: Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Stop horsing around
              Message 6 of 15 , May 8 5:22 AM
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
                To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 5:45 AM
                Subject: Re: [tied] Stop horsing around



                > Nifty. Is Indic <a> pronounced as schwa in all positions or just most?
                > If there is no [a] in contrast with [a:], how is the length maintained?

                The long ans short subsystems need not be qualitatively parallel in all
                respects. They are independent e.g. in British English, where there is no
                short /a/, the vowel of <cat> being (middish-)low front, that of <cot> fully
                back and rounded, and that of <cut> mid-low central. Still, there is a long
                (fully low, rather retracted) /a:/, as in <last> or <half> (and of course
                from contracted /ar/ as in <harm>), without a short counterpart.

                There are lots of Indic languages, and their vowel systems are not the same.
                Many of them, e.g. Hindi and Marathi, have a short <a> ranging between the
                vowels of <cut> and "uh", depending on the context, but never quite low,
                unlike /a:/. Similar qualities are traditionally assumed for Sanskrit.

                > Alright now. Considering for a moment that AbAd loaned its "horse" word
                from
                > a satem term *ec'was, where could *ekwo- originally be from? I don't like
                > unetymologized words. Could there be some verb root **ok- "to run(?)" that
                > became lengthened to produce *o:ku- "quick" on the one hand but *ekwos on
                > the other (via an earlier **?kwos with accent on the last syllable)?

                A good question. I wish I knew the answer :)

                Piotr
              • Glen Gordon
                ... Right. This is really just a matter of peripherality, the short subsystem being less peripheral and more tightly packed than the long subsytem. Still,
                Message 7 of 15 , May 8 3:25 PM
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                  Piotr:
                  >The long ans short subsystems need not be qualitatively parallel in all
                  >respects. They are independent [...]

                  Right. This is really just a matter of peripherality, the short subsystem
                  being less peripheral and more tightly packed than the long subsytem. Still,
                  shouldn't there be a bit of lowness to Indic /a/ or our Pre-IIr *a? It can't
                  just be mid-central schwa, can it? I mean, wouldn't that create an
                  unbalanced
                  system (like having [i], [u], [e] and [o] but no [a]). You mention "but
                  never
                  quite low" so I take it that there is indeed at least some lowness here.
                  Still, it's interesting and something to consider, as stubborn as I am to
                  admit it. Plus, being that *a is unaccented in *ec'was, it's of course very
                  possible for it to be pronounced as a mid-central schwa, regardless of the
                  pronunciation of accented *a.


                  >>Alright now. Considering for a moment that AbAd loaned its "horse" word
                  >>from a satem term *ec'was, where could *ekwo- originally be from?
                  >
                  >A good question. I wish I knew the answer :)

                  Alotta help _you_ are! >:) Is there any hint of a verb like **ok- or
                  something similar, though?


                  - love gLeN



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                • Antonio Ferrer
                  The Ideal: Motril, 12-06-02 A location confirms the presence Phoenician in the proximities of the current Motril Experts sustain that the establishment found
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 10 9:59 AM
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                    The Ideal: Motril, 12-06-02
                    A location confirms the presence Phoenician in the proximities of the current Motril
                    Experts sustain that the establishment found in the Gorgoracha closes the hole among the remains found in Almuñécar and those of Adra
                    Manuel Pedreira Motril
                    FMinería: To the Phoenicians, for their commercial character, all the exploitable resources attracted them. The existence of mines in the low alpujarra also explains to the hallazgo.FRestos: In the location they have been remains of the age of the copper, Phoenicians and Roman. There are not pieces ibéricas.ApuntesLos Phoenicians they lived 2.700 years ago in the valley of the Guadalfeo. Investigators of the University of Granada have confirmed the presence of remains of the civilization Phoenician in the area of the Gorgoracha, what comes to close the existent hole between the locations of Almuñécar and Salobreña and those of Adra, in the county almeriense. The archaeologists specialized in this historical stage maintained the hypothesis of the presence Phoenician in the valley of the Guadalfeo and in next territories to the county of Almería, but they lacked the discovery that demonstrated it. They already have it.
                    The professor of Archaeology of the University of Granada, Andrés Mª Adroher Auroux, assisted the call formulated by members of the environmentalist association Buxus a couple of months ago that in its journeys for the district had met with remains of more than probable scientific interest. The archaeologist's granadino work in the last weeks has ratified what was already sensed. The Phoenicians settled near the Guadalfeo and from that point they established commercial relationships with the indigenous communities of the vega of Granada.
                    This thesis explains the high presence of remains of this civilization among the nearest íberos to the current capital of the county. Until this discovery, it was thought that the penetration of the influence Phoenician had taken place for other channels: through the Green river until the Bermejales - where they have been remains of ceramic cared Phoenicians - and like alternative road, for the Hole of Zafarraya. The pieces of two-handled jars and of adobe that they are disseminated by this point of the Gorgoracha they finally throw light on that that, until then, he/she only ventured.
                    The establishment is located in the head of the Ravine of the you Climb yourself, next to the well-known farm as 'Black Club'. they have been numerous remains of two-handled jars and, what is more important, walls that could demonstrate the existence from a similar nucleus to a city. The eminently commercial character of the town Phoenician and the mining resources of the alpujarra low grenadine credit the theory of an establishment in the Gorgoracha, endorsed by the scum existence coming from the same place where they have been the ceramic pieces.
                    The archaeologist that has taken the weight of the investigations qualifies of «spectacular» the discovery from the historical-scientific point of view, «that had waited largely. In the last congress of archaeology púnica and Phoenician, had taken place for two years in Cádiz, mention some was not made to the presence of these residents beyond Almuñécar or Salobreña».
                    Sea inside
                    The existence of remains Phoenicians so many kilometers sea inside are erected as an added value of the discovery, since the historiography teaches that it was a town very attached to the coast, of few incursions toward the interior - the example Almuñécar contributes it, the 'Sexi' Phoenician -. However, it has not still been determined with accuracy where he/she was the coast line 27 centuries ago. Keeping in mind that the hill that now Salobreña occupies it was then a peninsula and that the Crag went into 500 meters in the sea, some experts place the coast line, to the height of Motril, much more near the establishment that where now he/she is.
                    The archaeologist highlights the good conservation of the remains, but he suspects that the area has suffered expolios «because in surface there are too many materials that should have several earth meters for above». The thefts incontrolados are now the biggest concern in the investigators that neither lose of view the possible damages of the action urbanística. For an and another reason they trust in that the administrations - Meeting of Andalusia in the first place - it recognizes the one it pierces, include it in the catalog of goods and, mainly, finance investigation projects, «if not, it won't be good for anything what one has worked and the remains will get lost forever».
                  • richardwordingham
                    ... word from a satem term *ec was, where could *ekwo- originally be from? I don t like unetymologized words. Could there be some verb root **ok- to run(?)
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 11, 2002
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                      --- In cybalist@y..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...> wrote:
                      > Alright now. Considering for a moment that AbAd loaned its "horse"
                      word from a satem term *ec'was, where could *ekwo- originally be
                      from? I don't like unetymologized words. Could there be some verb
                      root **ok- "to run(?)" that became lengthened to produce *o:ku-
                      "quick" on the one hand but *ekwos on the other (via an earlier **?
                      kwos with accent on the last syllable)?

                      You're not the only one to think along these lines. If you haven't
                      already seen it (e.g. under 'Aryan Non-Invasion Theory'), see Section
                      4.3 in http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin2.htm. It
                      suggests a deriviation from *eku-/oku- "swift".

                      Richard.
                    • richardwordingham
                      ... ... inflection, why is Abkhaz-Adyghe so special?? ... the sense all the other or 50% of languages? It isn t difficult to find examples of
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 11, 2002
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                        --- In cybalist@y..., "caraculiambro" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                        > --- In cybalist@y..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...>
                        > Date: Tue Apr 30, 2002 8:32 pm
                        > Subject: Re: [tied] Stop horsing around
                        >
                        <Snip>
                        > > So if every other language borrows words complete with
                        inflection, why is Abkhaz-Adyghe so special??
                        >
                        > Have you really examined "every other" language? "Every other" in
                        the sense 'all the other' or '50% of' languages? It isn't difficult
                        to find examples of regular inflections getting systematically
                        deleted in loans. Even English often drops Latin -us, e.g. sine < Neo-
                        Lat. sinus, and that despite Fr. sinus; cf. also Pliny, Antony, Livy,
                        etc. with -y for -ius.
                        >
                        Wouldn't the dropping of '-us' be following a French tradition of how
                        to acclimatise Greco-Latin words?

                        I recall that OE also drops '-us', but then there are:
                        1. 'Heavy bilingualism' - scholars did the borrowing.
                        2. Possibly examples such as Lt. vinum and OE wi:n to preserve the
                        correspondence of the declensions.

                        Richard.
                      • Glen Gordon
                        ... What I was trying to get at was how *o:ku- and *ekwo- might be related morphologically. Is there some underlying verb **ok-? There is no doubt that *o:ku-
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 11, 2002
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                          Richard:
                          >You're not the only one to think along these lines. If you haven't
                          >already seen it (e.g. under 'Aryan Non-Invasion Theory'), see Section
                          >4.3 in http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/keaitlin2.htm. It
                          >suggests a deriviation from *eku-/oku- "swift".

                          What I was trying to get at was how *o:ku- and *ekwo- might be related
                          morphologically. Is there some underlying verb **ok-? There is no doubt
                          that *o:ku- "swift" exists.


                          - gLeN


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