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[cybalist] Re: Afro-Asiatic

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  • John Croft
    Glen in relation to Alexander s post wrote (or was it Alexander in relation to Glen s... My mailserver creates endless confusion on such matters...) ... proper
    Message 1 of 56 , Feb 1, 2000
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      Glen in relation to Alexander's post wrote
      (or was it Alexander in relation to Glen's... My mailserver creates
      endless confusion on such matters...)
      > Ich antworte:
      > Do you mean: What DIRECT LINGUISTIC evidences do we have to prefer
      > Anatolian or proper Zagros cultures as a candidat for Nostratic one?
      I think
      > none (and hardly will ever have, I'm afraid).
      > However recognition any of them as Nostratic (in the framework of the
      > conception I presented) have very far going CONSEQUENCES. It is easy
      > retrace the connections of the Zagros (+Natufian) cultures with
      > "Subneolithic" and Neolithic cultures of the Middle East (but not
      > except the easternmost part), India, North China (but not the Huanghe
      > valley!), the Urals, the Pontic steppes, North-East Africa. On the
      other hand > the cultures of the Anatolian type spread in North
      Mesopotamia and South and
      > Central Europe, partly in the Caucasus region.
      > Which of these 2 areas looks "more Nostratic" for you?

      Point taken, both of them were probably Nostratic to begin with. In
      fact you cannot connect Natufian with Zagros in any way either. It is
      as destinct as Anatolian. In fact Natufian had contact with Anatolian
      cultures but not Zagros ones (they used the same source of Obsidian!).

      The result of the matter is Natufian culture developed by easy stages
      out of the pre-existing Kebaran culture. Presumably the Kebaran were
      Nostratic too! Equally Zagros sub-neolithic at Jarmo developed by easy
      stages out of the pre-existing Zarzian culture too. Thus the Zarzians
      were probaly Nostratic too. These cultures extend back to late Ice
      Age. They were microlithic in tradition at a time when their
      neighbours to the North and East were still post Aurignacian big game

      And where are the first microliths found? No.... you don't mean 15,000
      years ago with the North East African Helwan of Fayyum? Surely not...
      could that have been the oriigins of Nostratic? Perhaps....

      But as you say so rightly, you cannot equate culture with language.
      Except... the Na Dene peoples probably got into North America at the
      time of the melting of the Laurentide Ice Sheet. To have a Nostratic
      in Kamchatka so early means that Nostratic must have begun its
      expansion considerably before Natufian and the Zagros cultures, and
      that means before sub-Neolithic.


    • John Croft
      In reply to my point ... Glen wrote ... France ... clear, ... This is ... BuruYen, ... steppes and ... Please ... Glen Aurignacian culture, derived from the
      Message 56 of 56 , Feb 25, 2000
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        In reply to my point

        > John
        > >Yup, this second wave (unlike the first) definitely took off via the
        > >Palestine-Egyptian bridge. Aurignacian cultures spread rapidly north
        > >and west, through Anatolia, and the Balkans onto the Eurasian steppe.
        > >They were in Siberia north of Mongolia at Malaya Cave near Baikal by
        > >about 35,000 BCE.

        Glen wrote

        > Wait, I thought you said that the Aurignacian culture spread from
        > west across the more widespread steppes existant then. ?? So to be
        > this Second Wave (DeneCaucasian) came out of Egypt into Anatolia?
        This is
        > what I was claiming all along, the S-Group (NigerK, Nostratic,
        > SinoDene) moves along the south eastward and up to the eastern
        steppes and
        > the T-Group going north and west (Basque, NEC, Hattic, HurroU).
        > clarify.


        Aurignacian culture, derived from the Upper Paleolithic cultures of
        northeastern Africa, took off through Palestine, Anatolia, the Balkans
        40,000 BCE, and then split west (going to Spain and France, and east,
        arriving at lake Baikal at Malaya by 36,000 years BCE. This was the
        second wave out of Africa. (S Group Dene Caucasian, your Niger
        Kordofanian, Sino-Tibetan et al)

        The group that took off west developed Gravetian and Solutrean cultures
        that by 25,000 BCE had spread eastwards from a centre possibly in
        France, as far as the Urals. By 15,000 years BCE elements of this
        culture had spread as far east as Afonsova Gora at Krasnoyask in
        Siberia. This would have been T group Dene Caucasian.

        Hope this helps


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