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RE: [tied] *kuningaz

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  • Sergejus Tarasovas
    ... From: george knysh [mailto:gknysh@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:49 AM To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [tied] *kuningaz *****GK: It
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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      -----Original Message-----
      From: george knysh [mailto:gknysh@...]
      Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:49 AM
      To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [tied] *kuningaz


      *****GK: It would depend to some small extent from the
      date assigned to the emergence of Slavic as a distinct
      IE language family. What's your take on this?***** 
       
      It depends.
      I'm inclined to support the theory of early Proto-Slavic being actually an aberrant West Baltic dialect. I've seen 500BC proposed as a date of East(Central)-West(Periferal) split. I also sympathize to the theory that it was some external impulse that triggered Slavic ethnic explosion and forced them to leave swamps and forests for something looking much like the culture of Roman provinces (*banja, *rusalIje/*rusalUka etc) -- exctly what the Balts did not do. The Gothic 'activities' fit neatly as the impulse. Thus, the date in question would be somewhere between 500BC and 0AD.
      An alternative theory denies Slavic-from-Baltic of Balto-Slavic scheme and ascribes all the similarities to convergent processes. In that case, the question you ask is about the split of the PIE family in general -- the question I just can't answer.
       

      > The Baltic evidence is controversial, that's why
      > some scholars state the
      > source was Gothic or even Proto-Germanic, while
      > others insist on Middle High German. There are no
      > obvious Proto-Germanic
      > loans in Baltic in general, and only for two or
      > three lexemes
      > Proto-Germanic origin is not impossible.

      *******GK: What's the view on Latvian "kungs"?***** 
       
      I meant _all_ the Baltic evidence, i.e. Lithuanian, Latvian and Prussian.  Latvian ku`ngs is a direct counterpart of Lith. ku`nigas. Yes, they slightly differ semantically ('master' and 'priest'), but, at any rate, both Proto-Germanic (or an early Germanic dialect) and Middle High German are equally possible candidates to be the source.

      *****GK: How late is the Lith. word "kunigaikshtis"?
      The senses given "prince, sovereign, grand duke" sound
      much closer to East Slavic "knyaz'" than
      "kunigas"******
       
      I vaguely recall having read something on that. If I'm not mistaken, kuniga'iks^tis is supposed to mean 'lords's son/descendant' (cf. 'prince' vs. 'king') first. I have no idea how old it could be.
       
      Note,
      > however, that _if_
      > Lithuanian gu`das '1. Belarusian 2. (dialectal)
      > foreigner' is indeed a
      > Germanic borrowing, it must reflect pre-Grimm
      > Germanic (actually,
      > Proto-Germanic) form *gudas, so the borrowing must
      > have occured long
      > before 0 AD, which could point to rather early
      > Balto-Germanic contacts.

      *****GK: This is a tricky one. It seems that *gudas in
      the sense of "Slav of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania" is
      first attested in 1546. Pritsak has a theory that the
      word was coined in the 7th-8th c. when the ancestors
      of Lithuanians encountered the north-moving Slavs who
      had been part of the Gothic realm and kept this term
      ("Goth") as a self-designation. I find this quite
      implausible on historical grounds, and perhaps you
      would on linguistic ones. But if *gudas is not a
      Germanic borrowing (I find it difficult to imagine
      what Germanics would be doing in the area SE of
      Lithuania prior to 0 AD), what would be the
      alternative?*****
       
      The problem about this theory, as Piotr pointed two years ago on this list, is that if the word were _borrowed_ (whether by the Slavs or the Balts) after ca. 0AD (a more precise date depends on the dating of Grimm's law) it would have taken the form *gUtU in Slavic and *gu`tas in Lithuanian.
      The only possible way to save that theory (which is not Pritzak's and first occured in the 19th c.) is to suggest that the word was _borrowed_ before 0AD (the proto-Goths being NW of today's Lithuania) and then _applied_ to the Slavs later.
      Baltic etymologies have been also proposed for Lith. gu`das; the most plausible one explains it from onomatopoeic *gud- (cf. Lith. dial. guduo'ti 'speak unclear, murmur' and Slavic *go,gniti, *go,de^ti etc).
       
      Sergei
    • george knysh
      ... *****GK: Your idea of an aberrant dialect sounds promising. My take on the impulse which helped create it (rather than the impulse which triggered the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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        --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@...>
        wrote:
        > GK: And I thank you for your reflections==
        > (Re emergence of Slavic):
        >(ST) It depends.
        > I'm inclined to support the theory of early
        > Proto-Slavic being actually
        > an aberrant West Baltic dialect. I've seen 500BC
        > proposed as a date of
        > East(Central)-West(Periferal) split. I also
        > sympathize to the theory
        > that it was some external impulse that triggered
        > Slavic ethnic explosion
        > and forced them to leave swamps and forests for
        > something looking much
        > like the culture of Roman provinces (*banja,
        > *rusalIje/*rusalUka etc) --
        > exctly what the Balts did not do. The Gothic
        > 'activities' fit neatly as
        > the impulse. Thus, the date in question would be
        > somewhere between 500BC
        > and 0AD.

        *****GK: Your idea of an "aberrant" dialect sounds
        promising. My take on the "impulse" which helped
        create it (rather than the impulse which triggered the
        later outmigrations) focuses on the arrival of
        representatives of the "East Pomeranian" culture in
        the 3rd c BC into the southernmost "Neurian" areas of
        Old Scythia, creating a complex ethno-linguistic
        interplay here <300BC-0 AD>(Germanic (prob.), Baltic,
        "Scythian"). Somehow, "Slavs" are the ultimate product
        of this. With the Zarubynets'ka culture as their first
        archaeological expression.****

        >
        >(ST) Note,
        > > however, that _if_
        > > Lithuanian gu`das '1. Belarusian 2. (dialectal)
        > > foreigner' is indeed a
        > > Germanic borrowing, it must reflect pre-Grimm
        > > Germanic (actually,
        > > Proto-Germanic) form *gudas, so the borrowing must
        > > have occured long
        > > before 0 AD, which could point to rather early
        > > Balto-Germanic contacts.
        >
        > *****GK: This is a tricky one. It seems that *gudas
        > in
        > the sense of "Slav of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania"
        > is
        > first attested in 1546. Pritsak has a theory that
        > the
        > word was coined in the 7th-8th c. when the ancestors
        > of Lithuanians encountered the north-moving Slavs
        > who
        > had been part of the Gothic realm and kept this term
        > ("Goth") as a self-designation. I find this quite
        > implausible on historical grounds, and perhaps you
        > would on linguistic ones. But if *gudas is not a
        > Germanic borrowing (I find it difficult to imagine
        > what Germanics would be doing in the area SE of
        > Lithuania prior to 0 AD), what would be the
        > alternative?*****
        >
        > (ST)The problem about this theory, as Piotr pointed
        two
        > years ago on this
        > list, is that if the word were _borrowed_ (whether
        > by the Slavs or the
        > Balts) after ca. 0AD (a more precise date depends on
        > the dating of
        > Grimm's law) it would have taken the form *gUtU in
        > Slavic and *gu`tas in
        > Lithuanian.

        ****GK: The Herrmann article mentioned below argues,
        for what it's worth, that the expected -t- was changed
        to a -d- under the influence of "folk etymology".*****

        >(ST) The only possible way to save that theory (which
        is
        > not Pritzak's and
        > first occured in the 19th c.)

        *****GK: Sorry. I should have said "reported by"
        Pritsak. He took it from Eduard Herrmann's 1941
        article.*****

        (ST) is to suggest that the
        > word was _borrowed_
        > before 0AD (the proto-Goths being NW of today's
        > Lithuania) and then
        > _applied_ to the Slavs later.

        *****GK: Frankly that one is not very convincing.****

        >(ST) Baltic etymologies have been also proposed for
        Lith.
        > gu`das; the most
        > plausible one explains it from onomatopoeic *gud-
        > (cf. Lith. dial.
        > guduo'ti 'speak unclear, murmur'

        *****GK: So the "Gudai" are the Lithuanians' "Nimtsi"?
        (:=)) Why not? Much more plausible than the wandering
        from NW to SE*****



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      • Sergejus Tarasovas
        ****GK: The Herrmann article mentioned below argues, for what it s worth, that the expected -t- was changed to a -d- under the influence of folk
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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          ****GK: The Herrmann article mentioned below argues,
          for what it's worth, that the expected -t- was changed
          to a -d- under the influence of "folk etymology".*****
           
          Changed in Baltic or Slavic (who called themselves Goths, according to that theory)? And what's that folk etymology?
           

          >(ST) Baltic etymologies have been also proposed for
          Lith.
          > gu`das; the most
          > plausible one explains it from onomatopoeic *gud-
          > (cf. Lith. dial.
          > guduo'ti 'speak unclear, murmur'

           *****GK: So the "Gudai" are the Lithuanians' "Nimtsi"?
          (:=))
          Structurally, yes. There's a number of idiomatic expressions like
           
          ei~k po~ gu`do ra~tais 'go to hell, lit. go beneath a gu`das' cart'
          gu`do valanda` '(disappr.) extremely long period of time, lit. gu`das' hour'
          gu`das ko'jas i,ki`s^o 'has gone off (of milk, beer etc), lit. gu`das put his feet in',
          also a number of unusual or lame ways of doing something (building a house, setting up a fence etc) are called gudu,~ 'of the gudai~', gu`dis^kai 'in a gudai~'s manner'.
          Cf. the role the Germans play in Slavic folklore.
           
          Sergei
        • george knysh
          ... ****GK: The only information I have is from Pritsak s Origin of Rus , p. 133 note 72: ...Herrmann explains why the name GUDA-S contains a -D- (instead
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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            --- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > ****GK: The Herrmann article mentioned below argues,
            > for what it's worth, that the expected -t- was
            > changed
            > to a -d- under the influence of "folk
            > etymology".*****
            >
            >
            > Changed in Baltic or Slavic (who called themselves
            > Goths, according to
            > that theory)? And what's that folk etymology?

            ****GK: The only information I have is from Pritsak's
            "Origin of Rus'", p. 133 note 72: "...Herrmann
            explains why the name GUDA-S contains a -D- (instead
            of the expected -T-) under the influence of folk
            etymology: the Baltic languages did not have a
            syllable /gut/, but only /gud/...(GK:with a reference
            to pp. 243-244 of the 1941 Herrmann article in
            NACHRICHTEN DER AKADEMIE DER WISSENSCHAFTEN IN
            GOETTINGEN. Phil.-hist. Klasse.)"*****


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