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Re: The Scythian Brothers

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  • tgpedersen
    ... makes the best sense as an Iranian element (*-xs^ayah). Some Scythian princes may have sported non-Iranian names, of course (conversely, there are many
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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      --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > The reason why I insist on Iranian in this case is that <-ksaïs>
      makes the best sense as an Iranian element (*-xs^ayah). Some Scythian
      princes may have sported non-Iranian names, of course (conversely,
      there are many examples of Iranian names among non-Iranian-speaking
      peoples), but _hybrid_ names, say half Thracian, half Iranian, are
      more difficult to imagine. From the formal point of view, *ripa-
      xs^ayah would perfectly suffice as an etymological reconstruction of
      <lipoksaïs>.
      >
      > Piotr

      Yes, but what do make then of the bona fide Thracian name of
      Zalmoxis/Zamolxis, in which -x- is also by most ascribed to Iranian
      *xs^ayah-? As I see it, there must be two options:
      1) a hybrid, half-Iranian name
      2) -ks- is also Thracian
      (both assuming that *zalmo- is Thracian, as the sources claim)

      Torsten
    • tgpedersen
      ...
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 5, 2002
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        --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: tgpedersen
        > To: cybalist@y...
        > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:16 PM
        > Subject: [tied] Re: The Scythian Brothers
        >
        >
        > > 1 : kronprins
        > 2 : arveprins
        > 3-> : (prins)
        > > Torsten
        >
        >
        > An interesting idea, and the semantic development of Germanic *arb-
        < *orbH- into 'heir', 'inheritance' provides at least a nice
        typological parallel for the Scythian case. So (1) is "royal
        charisma", (2) is "hereditary right" (assuming that "arpo-" reflects
        *arba- < *orbH-o-) and (3) is ... well, whatever. In fact, the eldest
        brother does not seem to need any special virtues, being senior by
        default -- which is precisely what makes him a loser in the end :)
        >
        > Piotr

        I will have you know that I am the oldest of three brothers. Hrmph! :)
        Now that's at least one thing I'm an expert of, and I can assure you
        all that Herodotus' description of their roles is accurate. The first
        is the heir by definition, the next the hard worker, and then along
        comes prince Charming and steals the show.

        The whole structure of the tale reminds one of Andersen's "Klods-
        Hans" (I don't know its name in English) or Cinderella. The two first
        siblings may have the rules on their side, but they don't have true
        xwarena, exactly because they are bound by the rules. And (note: I'm
        only doing comparative IE mythology here!) the structure may be
        described as: High, Just-as-high, Third (tri-ta-?). I believe the
        Armenians have a three-brothers story too.

        I'll restate my case, for clarity:

        1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the formal heir
        2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by, substitute
        3+ : prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena

        Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz in German.
        German <leib> is "body; midriff section", ultimately related to
        <Leben> "life". But Duden has, among other things,
        Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
        Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
        Leib-eigen serf
        Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these "professions" there is
        a sovereign, so that this might have been another sense of <leib>
        once?

        As for the second, Erb-prinz, consider that he has to stand in for
        the first-born prince, his brother, after that one becomes the
        sovereign, in case of illness and travels abroad, and ultimately, in
        cases where the sovereign dies early (as they often did then) leaving
        behind under-age sons, the Erb-prinz will have to act as a temporary
        regent and guardian. Which points to the third strange sense derived
        from *orbH- : German <Arbeit> "villeinage" > "work" (cf. <rabota>):
        he is doing work for the sovereign.

        In Denmark in 1947 king Christan X died, leaving behind two sons:
        kronprins Frederik, who became king Frederik 9, and arveprins Knud.
        Until the new Grundlov, constitution of 1953, which instituted the
        right also for princesses to inherit the kingdom, people were worried
        that Knud was only a hearbeat away from becoming king, since they
        believed, probably more mythologically than fairly, that he was not
        too bright.

        Torsten
      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        Just about every nation in the world has a version of this tale (Simple Ivan, etc.). The Three Feathers , as recorded by the Grimm Brothers, begins: There was
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 5, 2002
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          Just about every nation in the world has a version of this tale (Simple Ivan, etc.). "The Three Feathers", as recorded by the Grimm Brothers, begins:
           
          There was once upon a time a King who had three sons, of whom two were clever and wise, but the third did not speak much and was simple, and was called the Simpleton ...
           
          -- and guess who got the fairest maiden and the crown.
           
          Piotr
           

           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:37 AM
          Subject: [tied] Re: The Scythian Brothers


          I will have you know that I am the oldest of three brothers. Hrmph! :)
          Now that's at least one thing I'm an expert of, and I can assure you
          all that Herodotus' description of their roles is accurate. The first
          is the heir by definition, the next the hard worker, and then along
          comes prince Charming and steals the show.

          The whole structure of the tale reminds one of Andersen's "Klods-
          Hans" (I don't know its name in English) or Cinderella. The two first
          siblings may have the rules on their side, but they don't have true
          xwarena, exactly because they are bound by the rules. And (note: I'm
          only doing comparative IE mythology here!) the structure may be
          described as: High, Just-as-high, Third (tri-ta-?). I believe the
          Armenians have a three-brothers story too.
        • george knysh
          ... ******GK: And here s one version which I remember from my highschool days. A King had three sons. He decided to grant his kingdom to the one who would
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 5, 2002
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            --- Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
            > Just about every nation in the world has a version
            > of this tale (Simple Ivan, etc.). "The Three
            > Feathers", as recorded by the Grimm Brothers,
            > begins:
            >
            > There was once upon a time a King who had three
            > sons, of whom two were clever and wise, but the
            > third did not speak much and was simple, and was
            > called the Simpleton ...
            >
            > -- and guess who got the fairest maiden and the
            > crown.
            >
            > Piotr

            ******GK: And here's one version which I remember from
            my highschool days. A King had three sons. He decided
            to grant his kingdom to the one who would prove the
            smartest. Calling his three sons together he said
            this: "My sons. Here are five hats, three of them are
            red and two are white. I shall put a hat on your heads
            and place you together in a room. You will be able to
            see your brothers' hats but not your own. The one who
            comes out of the room most quickly and tells me the
            colour of his hat(and why he thinks so, not guessing)
            will inherit the kingdom." So the three brothers were
            put together in the room. The youngest saw that his
            brothers both had red hats on. No one moved for some
            time. Then the youngest got up and left the room. He
            went to his father and said:"I know the colour of my
            hat. It is red. Because if it had been white one of my
            brothers would have walked out thinking that his hat
            was red because if it had been white that brother
            would have said that our other brother would have
            walked out seeing two white hats." And the youngest
            son was declared the official heir. ******
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            __________________________________________________
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          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            Yeah, it s an old brain-teaser, popularised by Martin Gardner, I think. But it illustrates well the eternal popularity of the simpleton motif (the hidden power
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 5, 2002
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              Yeah, it's an old brain-teaser, popularised by Martin Gardner, I think. But it illustrates well the eternal popularity of the simpleton motif (the hidden power of the youngest, or intelligence/charisma against the formal order of succession).
               
              There was a Queen who had three sons ...  Mark my words, Edward the Quiet still has a chance :)
               
              Piotr
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:29 PM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Re: The Scythian Brothers

              ******GK: And here's one version which I remember from my highschool days. A King had three sons. He decided to grant his kingdom to the one who would prove the smartest. .... ******
            • Glen Gordon
              ... Frankly, being a king isn t all it s cracked up to be. Ever heard the story of the King who had three sons who all became queens? Sorry, I have a bent
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 7, 2002
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                Piotr:
                >There was a Queen who had three sons ... Mark my words, Edward the >Quiet
                >still has a chance :)

                Frankly, being a king isn't all it's cracked up to be. Ever heard
                the story of the King who had three sons who all became queens?
                Sorry, I have a bent mind. Carry on. Don't mind me. Pretend I
                said nothing. ;)

                - love gLeN


                _________________________________________________________________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
              • tgpedersen
                ... Hrmph! :) ... you ... first ... first ... I m ... (Simple Ivan, etc.). The Three Feathers , as recorded by the Grimm ... were clever and wise, but the
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 9, 2002
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                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: tgpedersen
                  > To: cybalist@y...
                  > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:37 AM
                  > Subject: [tied] Re: The Scythian Brothers
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I will have you know that I am the oldest of three brothers.
                  Hrmph! :)
                  > Now that's at least one thing I'm an expert of, and I can assure
                  you
                  > all that Herodotus' description of their roles is accurate. The
                  first
                  > is the heir by definition, the next the hard worker, and then along
                  > comes prince Charming and steals the show.
                  >
                  > The whole structure of the tale reminds one of Andersen's "Klods-
                  > Hans" (I don't know its name in English) or Cinderella. The two
                  first
                  > siblings may have the rules on their side, but they don't have true
                  > xwarena, exactly because they are bound by the rules. And (note:
                  I'm
                  > only doing comparative IE mythology here!) the structure may be
                  > described as: High, Just-as-high, Third (tri-ta-?). I believe the
                  > Armenians have a three-brothers story too.

                  --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                  > Just about every nation in the world has a version of this tale
                  (Simple Ivan, etc.). "The Three Feathers", as recorded by the Grimm
                  Brothers, begins:
                  >
                  > There was once upon a time a King who had three sons, of whom two
                  were clever and wise, but the third did not speak much and was
                  simple, and was called the Simpleton ...
                  >
                  > -- and guess who got the fairest maiden and the crown.
                  >
                  > Piotr
                  >
                  >

                  Yes, of course, it probably has a catalog number in anthropology, but
                  I was thinking of three brothers as ancestors, see

                  http://highhistory.com/christianity.htm

                  Torsten
                • tgpedersen
                  ... *arb- ... reflects ... eldest ... Hrmph! :) ... you ... first ... first ... I m ... heir ... substitute ... is ... in ... leaving ... temporary ... derived
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 27, 2002
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                    --- In cybalist@y..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                    > --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: tgpedersen
                    > > To: cybalist@y...
                    > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:16 PM
                    > > Subject: [tied] Re: The Scythian Brothers
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > 1 : kronprins
                    > > 2 : arveprins
                    > > 3-> : (prins)
                    > > > Torsten
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > An interesting idea, and the semantic development of Germanic
                    *arb-
                    > < *orbH- into 'heir', 'inheritance' provides at least a nice
                    > typological parallel for the Scythian case. So (1) is "royal
                    > charisma", (2) is "hereditary right" (assuming that "arpo-"
                    reflects
                    > *arba- < *orbH-o-) and (3) is ... well, whatever. In fact, the
                    eldest
                    > brother does not seem to need any special virtues, being senior by
                    > default -- which is precisely what makes him a loser in the end :)
                    > >
                    > > Piotr
                    >
                    > I will have you know that I am the oldest of three brothers.
                    Hrmph! :)
                    > Now that's at least one thing I'm an expert of, and I can assure
                    you
                    > all that Herodotus' description of their roles is accurate. The
                    first
                    > is the heir by definition, the next the hard worker, and then along
                    > comes prince Charming and steals the show.
                    >
                    > The whole structure of the tale reminds one of Andersen's "Klods-
                    > Hans" (I don't know its name in English) or Cinderella. The two
                    first
                    > siblings may have the rules on their side, but they don't have true
                    > xwarena, exactly because they are bound by the rules. And (note:
                    I'm
                    > only doing comparative IE mythology here!) the structure may be
                    > described as: High, Just-as-high, Third (tri-ta-?). I believe the
                    > Armenians have a three-brothers story too.
                    >
                    > I'll restate my case, for clarity:
                    >
                    > 1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the formal
                    heir
                    > 2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by,
                    substitute
                    > 3+ : prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena
                    >
                    > Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz in German.
                    > German <leib> is "body; midriff section", ultimately related to
                    > <Leben> "life". But Duden has, among other things,
                    > Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
                    > Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
                    > Leib-eigen serf
                    > Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these "professions" there
                    is
                    > a sovereign, so that this might have been another sense of <leib>
                    > once?
                    >
                    > As for the second, Erb-prinz, consider that he has to stand in for
                    > the first-born prince, his brother, after that one becomes the
                    > sovereign, in case of illness and travels abroad, and ultimately,
                    in
                    > cases where the sovereign dies early (as they often did then)
                    leaving
                    > behind under-age sons, the Erb-prinz will have to act as a
                    temporary
                    > regent and guardian. Which points to the third strange sense
                    derived
                    > from *orbH- : German <Arbeit> "villeinage" > "work" (cf. <rabota>):
                    > he is doing work for the sovereign.
                    >
                    > In Denmark in 1947 king Christan X died, leaving behind two sons:
                    > kronprins Frederik, who became king Frederik 9, and arveprins Knud.
                    > Until the new Grundlov, constitution of 1953, which instituted the
                    > right also for princesses to inherit the kingdom, people were
                    worried
                    > that Knud was only a hearbeat away from becoming king, since they
                    > believed, probably more mythologically than fairly, that he was not
                    > too bright.
                    >
                    > Torsten

                    Something to follow up:
                    Gothic <arm-s>, German <arm> "poor" are derived from *orbH- too.
                    Now suppose we divide it this way:
                    (The) Leipoxais gets the immobile property (obsol.Da <liggendefæ>)
                    (The) Arpoxais gets the mobile property (Icel. <gangandifé>),
                    which includes the army (host) and all those younger brothers who
                    have to emigrate (in Copenhagen people say of the police (all from
                    Jutland: "Hvad fóregår hér", high tone on stressed syllable) that
                    they are the younger brothers that didn't get the farm).

                    Further:
                    In German <Leib> has the additional sense (beside "body") of "rump,
                    torso". Therefore perhaps we might add ModE <arm> to the derivatives
                    from *orbHo- (the contrast immobile/mobile again), and consider Lat.
                    <arma> "weapons", originally "equipment", again "mobile property"?
                    Galster ("Guldhornenes tale") conjectures a connection between the
                    -leben names of Thuringia , -lev/löv names of Denmark and Scania, and
                    German <Leib-geding> "pension", ie. <leip-> is something you live
                    off. A <life> is therefore what you have when you have property to
                    live off (which someone has <left> to you).

                    So, that oughta settle that.

                    Torsten
                  • tgpedersen
                    ... heir ... substitute ... is ... I discovered that the Romans had a military designation corporis custodes for the Germanic body-guard (life-guard?) of the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 9, 2004
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                      >
                      > I'll restate my case, for clarity:
                      >
                      > 1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the formal
                      heir
                      > 2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by,
                      substitute
                      > 3+ : prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena
                      >
                      > Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz in German.
                      > German <leib> is "body; midriff section", ultimately related to
                      > <Leben> "life". But Duden has, among other things,
                      > Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
                      > Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
                      > Leib-eigen serf
                      > Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these "professions" there
                      is
                      > a sovereign, so that this might have been another sense of <leib>
                      > once?
                      >

                      I discovered that the Romans had a military designation 'corporis
                      custodes' for the Germanic body-guard (life-guard?) of the Emperor. I
                      suppose it was a Latin calque of a similar Germanic intitution, since
                      the German "pun" body/life/heir is implicit in the translation (and
                      must have been that old) too.

                      Torsten
                    • g
                      ... What is more, hehe, is that there are names such as / (chiefly in Southern regions of the Reich ), as modern variants of the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 9, 2004
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                        >> I'll restate my case, for clarity:
                        >>
                        >> 1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the formal
                        > >heir
                        >> 2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by,
                        > >substitute
                        >> 3+: prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena
                        >>
                        >> Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz in German.
                        >> German <leib> is "body; midriff section", ultimately related to
                        >> <Leben> "life". But Duden has, among other things,
                        >> Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
                        >> Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
                        >> Leib-eigen serf
                        >> Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these "professions" there
                        > >is a sovereign, so that this might have been another sense of <leib>
                        >> once?

                        What is more, hehe, is that there are names such as
                        <Leibbrand(t)>/<Leip(p)rand> (chiefly in Southern regions
                        of the 'Reich'), as modern variants of the old <Liutprand>.
                        E.g.:
                        http://www.cousinconnect.com/p/a/0/s/LEIBBRANDT
                        (Also cf. Lüppertz, Lübbers, Leiprecht, Leiper(ch)t - for
                        which I suppose < <liut>+<beracht>.)

                        (In the examples above, <leib->/<Leib-> simply means:
                        "belonging to/concerning the body;" hence <Leibgarde>
                        is verbatim <bodyguard>. And <Leib> is first of all
                        <the body>; "midriff section" is a secondary meaning.
                        Cf. the Christian notion <der Leib des Herren>; then <bei
                        lebendigem Leibe>; <Gefahr für Leib und Leben>; <bleib
                        mir vom Leib!>; <Leibesübung>; <Leibesvisitation>
                        "personal/body search" & al. phrases & locutions.

                        OTOH, <Leib> can be misleading, since it is at the
                        same time a relic of the older form for __<Leben>__
                        "life": e.g. <Leibgedinge>=<Leibrente> "life annuity" (in
                        French <pension viagère>); <Leibgericht>, <Leibgetränk>
                        - in the latter two <Leib-> means __<Lieblings->__,i.e.
                        the "preferred" (beloved!) food & drink.)

                        George
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... there ... ... All true, but my point was that maybe the Leib- in Leibwache etc is a forgotten cognate of Northern English dialect heir
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 10, 2004
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, g <george.st@g...> wrote:
                          > >> I'll restate my case, for clarity:
                          > >>
                          > >> 1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the formal
                          > > >heir
                          > >> 2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by,
                          > > >substitute
                          > >> 3+: prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena
                          > >>
                          > >> Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz in German.
                          > >> German <leib> is "body; midriff section", ultimately related to
                          > >> <Leben> "life". But Duden has, among other things,
                          > >> Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
                          > >> Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
                          > >> Leib-eigen serf
                          > >> Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these "professions"
                          there
                          > > >is a sovereign, so that this might have been another sense of
                          <leib>
                          > >> once?
                          >
                          > What is more, hehe, is that there are names such as
                          > <Leibbrand(t)>/<Leip(p)rand> (chiefly in Southern regions
                          > of the 'Reich'), as modern variants of the old <Liutprand>.
                          > E.g.:
                          > http://www.cousinconnect.com/p/a/0/s/LEIBBRANDT
                          > (Also cf. Lüppertz, Lübbers, Leiprecht, Leiper(ch)t - for
                          > which I suppose < <liut>+<beracht>.)
                          >
                          > (In the examples above, <leib->/<Leib-> simply means:
                          > "belonging to/concerning the body;" hence <Leibgarde>
                          > is verbatim <bodyguard>. And <Leib> is first of all
                          > <the body>; "midriff section" is a secondary meaning.
                          > Cf. the Christian notion <der Leib des Herren>; then <bei
                          > lebendigem Leibe>; <Gefahr für Leib und Leben>; <bleib
                          > mir vom Leib!>; <Leibesübung>; <Leibesvisitation>
                          > "personal/body search" & al. phrases & locutions.
                          >
                          > OTOH, <Leib> can be misleading, since it is at the
                          > same time a relic of the older form for __<Leben>__
                          > "life": e.g. <Leibgedinge>=<Leibrente> "life annuity" (in
                          > French <pension viagère>); <Leibgericht>, <Leibgetränk>
                          > - in the latter two <Leib-> means __<Lieblings->__,i.e.
                          > the "preferred" (beloved!) food & drink.)
                          >

                          All true, but my point was that maybe the Leib- in Leibwache etc is a
                          forgotten cognate of Northern English dialect <lave> "heir"
                          (presumably of immobile property, the 'Erbe' would then be mobile
                          property). Thus, a third meaning.

                          Torsten
                        • Brian M. Scott
                          At 5:25:41 AM on Saturday, January 10, 2004, tgpedersen ... Yes. ... Actually, is the rest, the remainder , as in and all the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 10, 2004
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                            At 5:25:41 AM on Saturday, January 10, 2004, tgpedersen
                            wrote:

                            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, g <george.st@g...> wrote:

                            >>>> I'll restate my case, for clarity:

                            >>>> 1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the
                            >>>> formal heir

                            >>>> 2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by,
                            >>>> substitute

                            >>>> 3+: prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena

                            >>>> Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz
                            >>>> in German. German <leib> is "body; midriff section",
                            >>>> ultimately related to <Leben> "life". But Duden has,
                            >>>> among other things,

                            >>>> Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
                            >>>> Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
                            >>>> Leib-eigen serf

                            >>>> Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these
                            >>>> "professions" there is a sovereign, so that this might
                            >>>> have been another sense of <leib> once?

                            >> What is more, hehe, is that there are names such as
                            >> <Leibbrand(t)>/<Leip(p)rand> (chiefly in Southern regions
                            >> of the 'Reich'), as modern variants of the old
                            >> <Liutprand>. E.g.:
                            >> http://www.cousinconnect.com/p/a/0/s/LEIBBRANDT (Also cf.
                            >> Lüppertz, Lübbers, Leiprecht, Leiper(ch)t - for which I
                            >> suppose < <liut>+<beracht>.)

                            Yes.

                            >> (In the examples above, <leib->/<Leib-> simply means:
                            >> "belonging to/concerning the body;" hence <Leibgarde> is
                            >> verbatim <bodyguard>. And <Leib> is first of all <the
                            >> body>; "midriff section" is a secondary meaning. Cf. the
                            >> Christian notion <der Leib des Herren>; then <bei
                            >> lebendigem Leibe>; <Gefahr für Leib und Leben>; <bleib
                            >> mir vom Leib!>; <Leibesübung>; <Leibesvisitation>
                            >> "personal/body search" & al. phrases & locutions.

                            >> OTOH, <Leib> can be misleading, since it is at the same
                            >> time a relic of the older form for __<Leben>__ "life":
                            >> e.g. <Leibgedinge>=<Leibrente> "life annuity" (in French
                            >> <pension viagère>); <Leibgericht>, <Leibgetränk> - in the
                            >> latter two <Leib-> means __<Lieblings->__,i.e. the
                            >> "preferred" (beloved!) food & drink.)

                            > All true, but my point was that maybe the Leib- in
                            > Leibwache etc is a forgotten cognate of Northern English
                            > dialect <lave> "heir" (presumably of immobile property,
                            > the 'Erbe' would then be mobile property). Thus, a third
                            > meaning.

                            Actually, <lave> is 'the rest, the remainder', as in <an a'
                            the lave o't> 'and all the rest of it'; I've not seen it
                            specialized to 'heir'. It's from OE <la:f> 'what is left'
                            (though de Vries takes it to be a borrowing of the cognate
                            ON <leif> 'Erbschaft') and hence cognate with the place-name
                            generic <-leben>. The OE could also mean 'relict, widow',
                            but I don't believe that a sense 'heir' is recorded.

                            <Leib> is from OHG <li:b> 'body; life', cognate with OE
                            <li:f> 'life, existence', ON <líf> 'life; body'. It's
                            related to the 'leave' group, but not part of it.

                            Brian
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