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Re: [tied] Re: Celtic and pre-Celtic in Britannia

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  • Piotr Gasiorowski
    ... From: Christopher Gwinn To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: [tied] Re: Celtic and pre-Celtic in Britannia
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 27, 2001
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      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:30 PM
      Subject: [tied] Re: Celtic and pre-Celtic in Britannia
       
       
      [Antonio:] Starting from the fact that Celtic was a /o/ language, a simple criterion 
      to separate Celtic and non-Celtic toponyms could be looking for ones that have an /a/ where /o/ would be expected from Ablaut of a PIE root.

      [Chris:] What evidence is there that Celtic was an "/o/" dialect? can you give
      some examples? If I am not mistaken, Celtic certainly has native examples of a-grade forms of PIE roots.
       
      Italic and Celtic make abundant use of *a as a zero-grade substitute and a "cluster-buster", especially next to a liquid or nasal. One has to be careful before using *a-vocalism as a "simple criterion" for identifying non-Celtic tpoponyms.
       
      Piotr
       
       



      [Antonio:] 8) Tamarus fl. (Ptol., Rav.) If from *tem- 'to cut', it should be the /o/ Ablaut-variant in an /a/ language. But again we have here also Tamesa fl. (the Thames) and probably something more authored has been said on it. Who helps me ?

      [Chris:] I am fairly certain that a Celtic etymology has been proposed for the Tam- names. Once again, I would recommend Xavier Delamarre's Dictionnair de la langue gauloise, as well as Kenneth Jackson's Language and History in Early Britain.

      Because of Ekwall's authority the name of the Thames was once widely believed to derive from PIE *temh1(e)s- 'dark', though -- let's face it -- the Thames is not conspicuously dark, as English rivers go. It gets remarkably muddy downstream, and that fact may be of more etymological relevance. Nicolaisen and several other hydronymists connect the *tam- group of names with *ta:- < *tah2- 'dissolve, melt, flow' (*th2-mo-), the protoform of <Thames> being extended with the hydronymic suffix *-isa:.
       
      Piotr
       
    • João Simões Lopes Filho
      Could this Alteuropaisch substratum be the IE Ligurian? Since we are talking about Lusitanian toponyms, what s the etymology of Lisboa (Lisbon)
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 30, 2001
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        Could this "Alteuropaisch" substratum be the IE Ligurian?

        Since we are talking about Lusitanian toponyms, what's the etymology of
        Lisboa (Lisbon) < Olisipona ? The same as -bona in Vindobona? What's the
        explanation of this -bona ?
        Folk-etymology related Olisipona from Ulysses.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Dr. Antonio Sciarretta <sciarretta@...>
        To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 1:03 PM
        Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Celtic and pre-Celtic in Britannia


        > I read various works of F. Villar (one is Indoeuropeos y no indoeuropeos
        en
        > la Hispania Prerromana, Salamanca, 2000) that used this same criterion to
        > distinguish
        > Celtiberian toponyms (/o/ language, 0 < *p), from "Lusitanian" toponyms
        > (/o/ language, p < *p), from "Alteuropaeisch" toponyms (/a/ language, p <
        > *p) in ancient (southern) Hispania. Like some other criteria based on
        > purely phonetic features (cfr. the V. Georgiev "invention" of Pelasgian,
        > already discussed in this list), it has something speculative and
        > simplistic, but can be rather effective (of course if well applied, and I
        > don't want to say I'm applying it well).
        > Also J. Udolph (Die Stellung der Gewässernamen Polens innerhalb der
        > alteuropäischen Hydronymie, Heidelberg, 1990) did the same to explain some
        > hydronyms of Poland.
      • João Simões Lopes Filho
        ... From: Dr. Antonio Sciarretta To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Re:
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 30, 2001
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dr. Antonio Sciarretta <sciarretta@...>
          To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 1:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Celtic and pre-Celtic in Britannia


          >
          > >Alauna comes ultimately from an earlier *Alamna, where the root *al-
          > >(suffixed form *al-o-) is "nourish/to grow", thus *Alamna
          > >is "Nourisher/Provider" (related to Latin alumnus, but with an active
          > >meaning in Celtic, from PIE *al-o-mn). Common Celtic -mn- is often
          > >reduced to -un- in Late Gaulish and Brittonic.
          >

          alumnus is not "Nourisher", but the opposite, "nourished". < *al-o-m(e)nos,
          passive.
        • Christopher Gwinn
          ... *al- ... active ... often ... (e)nos, ... Yes, I know - that is why I said that *al-o-mn had an active meaning in Celtic (as opposed to Latin s passive).
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 30, 2001
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            > > >Alauna comes ultimately from an earlier *Alamna, where the root
            *al-
            > > >(suffixed form *al-o-) is "nourish/to grow", thus *Alamna
            > > >is "Nourisher/Provider" (related to Latin alumnus, but with an
            active
            > > >meaning in Celtic, from PIE *al-o-mn). Common Celtic -mn- is
            often
            > > >reduced to -un- in Late Gaulish and Brittonic.
            > >
            >
            > alumnus is not "Nourisher", but the opposite, "nourished". < *al-o-m
            (e)nos,
            > passive.

            Yes, I know - that is why I said that *al-o-mn had an active meaning
            in Celtic (as opposed to Latin's passive). Nowhere did I state that
            Latin alumnus meant "nourisher".

            - Chris Gwinn
          • Dr. Antonio Sciarretta
            ... It should belong instead to a series of toponyms including *Cedripo (inscr.), *Cantnipo (inscr.), Usaepo (Plin.) and Acinippo (Ptol., Plin.), Baesippo (2,
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 30, 2001
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              Joao wrote:
              >Since we are talking about Lusitanian toponyms, what's the etymology of
              >Lisboa (Lisbon) < Olisipona ? The same as -bona in Vindobona? What's the
              >explanation of this -bona ?
              >Folk-etymology related Olisipona from Ulysses.

              It should belong instead to a series of toponyms including *Cedripo
              (inscr.), *Cantnipo (inscr.), Usaepo (Plin.) and Acinippo (Ptol., Plin.),
              Baesippo (2, Ptol., Plin.), Belippo (Plin.), Blacippo (Plin.), Lacippo
              (Ptol.), Orippo (Plin.), Ostippo (Plin.), Serippo (Plin.), Ventippo
              (Plin.), all in Baetica or southern Lusitania.
              The -ona ending should be mainly a later latinization of the name, coming
              from a generalization of the oblique case.
              Former scholars related them to Hippo, town-names in northern Africa, for
              the supposed relationship between Iberians and Berbers, basically.
              But most of these place-names could have an IE etymology (at least Vent-,
              Bel-, Lac-, Ost- and Baes- for sure), sharing an /o/ feature, as Olosipo
              (Str.)/Oliosipo (Ptol.)
              Recently, these names have been attributed to an IE "Tartessian", and
              related to some Anatolian appellative meaning 'town' or whatever.
              I don't think a Celtic origin can be excluded (compare Ventippo and Venta
              (Bri), Acinippo belonged to Celtici tribe, etc.), probably some of you will
              try to find an etymology for this appellative.
              For the first part, it could be an *Olosa, that could be fitted by at least
              two IE roots (one is the *el-/ol- we have discussed).
              The suffix of this is shared with several place-names in Hispania and
              southern Gallia, like Dertosa, Tolosa, Egosa, Libisosa, Metercosa, Succosa
              etc. Most of them can have an IE etymology, but some of them could also be
              explained if a Basque-Iberian connection is postulated, as often has been done.
              Another (not so)folk-etymology of Olisipona is from Phoenician Alis Ubbo or
              something, meaning 'beautiful port', as I found somewhere on the net.

              Antonio Sciarretta
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