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Re: [tied] The origin of *ek^wos and *o:k^u-... A mystery solved

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  • Sergejus Tarasovas
    ... links ... peter ... *h2, ... But does h2o:- yiels _acute-stressed_ Slavic *a? The laryngeal is before the vowel here, after all, and Serbo-Croatian and
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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      --- In cybalist@y..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@w...> wrote:

      > I'm wondering though, whether the traditional explanation, that
      links
      > *o:k^ú- "fast" with *h2ak^-(u-)/*h2ok^-(u-) "sharp" is not to be
      > preferred. Pokorny's "schnell (scharf in der Bewegung)" is not some
      > semantical handwave, but is backed up by Latin <accipiter> (*aku-
      peter
      > "sharp-flying") and Slavic <jastre(~)bU> (*o:k^r- "fast"), both
      > meaning "hawk, falcon". If so, then the laryngeal in *o:k^ú- is
      *h2,
      > and any link with *h1ek^wos is off.

      But does h2o:- yiels _acute-stressed_ Slavic *a? The laryngeal is
      before the vowel here, after all, and Serbo-Croatian and Russian
      point to an acute-stressed *a in *astre,bU : *astro,bU. Again, Slavic
      doesn't know *a'str- 'sharp' (thoiugh it knows *astrU '=*astre,bU'),
      only *ostrU. Survival of the vrddhied grade in the hawk/falcon-word
      only should be explained.

      Sergei
    • Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
      On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:25:27 -0000, Sergejus Tarasovas ... Sorry, I don t know enough about (Balto-)Slavic accentology to opine on the acute. Although
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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        On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:25:27 -0000, "Sergejus Tarasovas"
        <S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:

        >--- In cybalist@y..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@w...> wrote:
        >
        >> I'm wondering though, whether the traditional explanation, that
        >links
        >> *o:k^ú- "fast" with *h2ak^-(u-)/*h2ok^-(u-) "sharp" is not to be
        >> preferred. Pokorny's "schnell (scharf in der Bewegung)" is not some
        >> semantical handwave, but is backed up by Latin <accipiter> (*aku-
        >peter
        >> "sharp-flying") and Slavic <jastre(~)bU> (*o:k^r- "fast"), both
        >> meaning "hawk, falcon". If so, then the laryngeal in *o:k^ú- is
        >*h2,
        >> and any link with *h1ek^wos is off.
        >
        >But does h2o:- yiels _acute-stressed_ Slavic *a? The laryngeal is
        >before the vowel here, after all, and Serbo-Croatian and Russian
        >point to an acute-stressed *a in *astre,bU : *astro,bU. Again, Slavic
        >doesn't know *a'str- 'sharp' (thoiugh it knows *astrU '=*astre,bU'),
        >only *ostrU. Survival of the vrddhied grade in the hawk/falcon-word
        >only should be explained.

        Sorry, I don't know enough about (Balto-)Slavic accentology to opine
        on the acute. Although jastre,bI is given by Pokorny as a possibility
        under *o:k^u-, I got the notion from a p.c. from Alexis Manaster-Ramer
        (he asked me what I could find on his theory that Slav. jasnU "clear"
        < *o:k^u/*o:k^r-/*o:k^n-).
      • Sergejus Tarasovas
        ... possibility ... Ramer ... clear ... Slavic *jasnU indeed doesn t have a plausible (or acceptable) etymology, but explanation from
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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          --- In cybalist@y..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@w...> wrote:

          > Sorry, I don't know enough about (Balto-)Slavic accentology to opine
          > on the acute. Although jastre,bI is given by Pokorny as a
          possibility
          > under *o:k^u-, I got the notion from a p.c. from Alexis Manaster-
          Ramer
          > (he asked me what I could find on his theory that Slav. jasnU
          "clear"
          > < *o:k^u/*o:k^r-/*o:k^n-).

          Slavic *jasnU indeed doesn't have a plausible (or acceptable)
          etymology, but explanation from < *o:k^u/*o:k^r-/*o:k^n- has its
          problems. First, this obtrusive acute stress again (Serbo-Chroatian
          ja"san (m), ja"sna (f)). Second, it's hard to separate the Slavic
          lexeme from Lith. a'is^kus 'clear' (in dialects also e'is^kus,
          y's^kus) - so we probably have something like *ja'snU < *(j)e^'snU <
          *a:i'S-n- < ?

          Sergei
        • Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
          On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:41:40 -0000, Sergejus Tarasovas ... Yes, that s the other possibility. I suppose Alexis won t mind if I copy here the extent of our
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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            On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:41:40 -0000, "Sergejus Tarasovas"
            <S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:

            >--- In cybalist@y..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@w...> wrote:
            >
            >> Sorry, I don't know enough about (Balto-)Slavic accentology to opine
            >> on the acute. Although jastre,bI is given by Pokorny as a
            >possibility
            >> under *o:k^u-, I got the notion from a p.c. from Alexis Manaster-
            >Ramer
            >> (he asked me what I could find on his theory that Slav. jasnU
            >"clear"
            >> < *o:k^u/*o:k^r-/*o:k^n-).
            >
            >Slavic *jasnU indeed doesn't have a plausible (or acceptable)
            >etymology, but explanation from < *o:k^u/*o:k^r-/*o:k^n- has its
            >problems. First, this obtrusive acute stress again (Serbo-Chroatian
            >ja"san (m), ja"sna (f)). Second, it's hard to separate the Slavic
            >lexeme from Lith. a'is^kus 'clear' (in dialects also e'is^kus,
            >y's^kus) - so we probably have something like *ja'snU < *(j)e^'snU <
            >*a:i'S-n- < ?

            Yes, that's the other possibility. I suppose Alexis won't mind if I
            copy here the extent of our correspondence on the theme:

            [amr:]
            >Dziekuje bardzo. Wydaje mi sie, ze moja etymologia jest lepsza, bo zadnego
            >*ai w slowianskim slowie nie ma. Zapomnialem dodac, ze jastrzab (ros.
            >jastreb) musi byc
            >forma pokrewna: jas- = o:k'u-. Czy moglbys zerknac, co o tym slowie mowia?
            >
            >--On Thursday, November 09, 2000, 12:41 AM +0100 Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
            ><mcv@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Alexis,
            >>
            >>> Miguel, Do you have a Polish or Slavic etym. dict. by any chance?
            >>
            >> Only a Russian one, plus a reprint of Miklosisch's 1886 dictionary.
            >>
            >>> I just
            >>> thought of what may or may not be anew etymology and would liek to
            >>> find out if it is infact new and what the standard etym is. the word
            >>> is Polish jasny, and my idea is that it = Gr. o:kus, since words for
            >>> fast, swift commonly also mean bright, light-colored in early IE.
            >>> Anyway, if you do have a way to check into this, it would be nice. A.
            >>
            >> The Russian dict. "Istoriko-ètimologicheskij slovar' sovremennogo
            >> russkogo jazyka", by P. Ja. Chernyx connects <jasnyj> (*e^snU-) with
            >> Lith. áis^kus "bright" (as does Miklosisch), possibly Toch. B <yesäñ>
            >> "bright", < PIE *ai-sk-n(o)- (unless from something starting with
            >> *a:/o:-, see Selishchev, "Staroslavjanskij Jazyk I", p. 223,
            >> 1951-1952) --> Pokorny: *aisk- "klar, hell, leuchtend": Awnord.
            >> <eiskra> "vor hitiziger Erregung wüten", nisl. <iskra>, the Lith. and
            >> Slavic words, plus Pol. jaskry, jaskrawy, and general Slav. iskra.
            >> Maybe from *aidh-sk-.
            >>
            >> =======================
            >> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
            >> mcv@...
            >
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            How about *a:isk-(no-)
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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              How about *a:isk-(no-) < *h2ah1-isk-, from *h2ah1- 'burn, glow'?
               
              Piotr
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:41 PM
              Subject: [tied] Re: The origin of *ek^wos and *o:k^u-... A mystery solved

              Slavic *jasnU indeed doesn't have a plausible (or acceptable)
              etymology, but explanation from < *o:k^u/*o:k^r-/*o:k^n- has its
              problems. First, this obtrusive acute stress again (Serbo-Chroatian
              ja"san (m), ja"sna (f)). Second, it's hard to separate the Slavic
              lexeme from Lith. a'is^kus 'clear' (in dialects also e'is^kus,
              y's^kus) - so we probably have something like *ja'snU < *(j)e^'snU <
              *a:i'S-n- < ?
            • Piotr Gasiorowski
              The majority view is that *asUtre~bU/*asUstre~bU (as reconstructed by Vey) is a derivative of *o:k^u-ptr-o- and thus somehow related to . My
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                The "majority view" is that *asUtre~bU/*asUstre~bU (as reconstructed by Vey) is a derivative of *o:k^u-ptr-o- and thus somehow related to <accipiter>. My knowledge of Slavic accentology is also insufficient to predict with any accuracy the behaviour of stress and accent in a quadrisyllabic compound noun with an uncertain derivational history (was the initial laryngeal-toned? where was the original location of stress? what was the effect of the complex suffixation?).
                 
                Piotr
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:55 PM
                Subject: Re: [tied] Re: The origin of *ek^wos and *o:k^u-... A mystery solved

                [amr:]
                >Dziekuje bardzo.  Wydaje mi sie, ze moja etymologia jest lepsza, bo zadnego
                >*ai w slowianskim slowie nie ma.  Zapomnialem dodac, ze jastrzab (ros.
                >jastreb) musi byc
                >forma pokrewna: jas- = o:k'u-.  Czy moglbys zerknac, co o tym slowie mowia?
              • Sergejus Tarasovas
                ... If I m getting right, a normal syllabification would be *h2a-h1isk- **ai~sk-? Sergei
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                  --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                  > How about *a:isk-(no-) < *h2ah1-isk-, from *h2ah1- 'burn, glow'?
                  >

                  If I'm getting right, a normal syllabification would be *h2a-h1isk- >
                  **ai~sk-?

                  Sergei
                • Piotr Gasiorowski
                  But don t nuclei resulting from -VHV- contraction become acuted in Balto-Slavic? Cf. *dah2i-wer- (Latv. die^veris). Piotr ... From: Sergejus Tarasovas To:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                    But don't nuclei resulting from -VHV- contraction become acuted in Balto-Slavic? Cf. *dah2i-wer- (Latv. die^veris).
                     
                    Piotr
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:39 PM
                    Subject: [tied] Re: The origin of *ek^wos and *o:k^u-... A mystery solved

                    --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                    > How about *a:isk-(no-) < *h2ah1-isk-, from *h2ah1- 'burn, glow'?

                    If I'm getting right, a normal syllabification would be *h2a-h1isk- > **ai~sk-?

                    Sergei
                  • Sergejus Tarasovas
                    ... reconstructed by Vey) is a derivative of *o:k^u-ptr-o- and thus somehow related to . 1. What makes Vey reconstruct Proto-Slavic
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                      --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                      > The "majority view" is that *asUtre~bU/*asUstre~bU (as
                      reconstructed by Vey) is a derivative of *o:k^u-ptr-o- and thus
                      somehow related to <accipiter>.

                      1. What makes Vey reconstruct Proto-Slavic *asUtre,bU/*asUstre,bU (I
                      don't have a copy of Bulletin de la Société de linguistique de Paris
                      #49 at hand :) )? The evidence from the attested Slavic languages is
                      as follows:

                      1.1 Bulg. ja'streb m. 'hawk Astur palumbarius', Mac. jastreb m.
                      'id.', S-Cr. ja"strijeb, dial. ja"stre^b, ja"stri^b m. 'kite',
                      ja"strov, strebic' 'Aërocephalis palustris', Sloven. ja^streb m.
                      'hawk, kite', ja^stran 'id.' [most likely a secondary form], Cz.
                      jestr^a'b m. 'hawk Astur palumbarius', Slovak. jastab m. 'id.',
                      HSorb.(-Lus.) jatr^ob', G. -bja m. 'hawk Astur, kite Vultur', LSorb.(-
                      Lus.) jasts'eb', jasts'eb m. 'hawk Astur palumbarius', OPol. jastram
                      'id.' [most likely a secondary form], Pol. jastrza,b, G. -e,bia
                      'id.', Kash.-Sl.(Pom.) ja.~str^ïb (a with a dot and a tilde above, r^
                      as in Cz., it seems Lorentz tried to use merely phonetic notation),
                      ORuss jastre,bU, jastrebU 'id.', Russ. ja'streb m. 'id.', Ukr.
                      ja'strib m. 'id.', dial. astrJA'b (JA for the last letter of the Ukr.
                      alph.) [note initial a-], ja's'tr'ab [Vey was probably not aware of
                      the form, [s'] is palatalized, and the yers fell rather _late_ in
                      Ukrainian, later, than, eg, even in Northern dialects of Russian],
                      ja'strJAb 'id.', Bel. ja'strab 'id.'.

                      This forms point, first of all, to *a- or *ja-, though *a- is
                      preferred not only because of _possible_ non-Slavic cogantes, but
                      also because of Ukr. dial. astrJA'b.
                      As for the rest of the word, the forms enumerated point to *astre,bU
                      and, most likely, *astre,bI (cf. also *astre,binUjI).
                      S-Cr. ja"strijeb, dial. ja"stri^b and Ukr. ja'strib, of not of a
                      secondary origin, may also point to *astre^bU.

                      1.2 Cz. jestr^a'bek, G. -bka m., 'dimin. of jestr^a'b', LSorb.(-Lus.)
                      jasts'ebk m. 'hazel-grouse Bonasa silvestris', Pol. jastrza,bek, G. -
                      bka, 'dim. of jastrza,b', Russ. jastrebo'k, G. -bka 'small hawk'.

                      Point to *astre,bUkU.

                      1.3 Bulg. ja'strebec 'dim. of ja'streb', S.-Cr. jastre'bac, G. -pca
                      m. 'dim. of jastreb', Cz. jestr^a'bec, G. -bce, m. 'dim. of
                      jestr^a'b'.

                      Point to *astre,bIcI.

                      1.4 Sloven. ja^strebji 'of hawk', Cz. jestr^a'bi' 'id.', Slovak.
                      jastrabi' 'id.', Pol. jastrze,bi 'id.', Kash.-Sl.(Pom.) jastr^a.~bji
                      'id.', Russ. ChSlav. jasre,blI 'id.'

                      Point to *astre,bIjI / *astre,bjI

                      1.5 Sloven. ja^strob m. 'hawk Astur palumbarius', Ukr. ja'strub m.
                      'id.'

                      If not of secondary origin, point to *astro,bU (cf. *golo,bU
                      'pigeon').

                      1.6 Ukr. dial. ja'ster 'hawk'. If not of secondary origin, points to
                      *astrU. Cf. also *astriti > Cz. dial. jastr^iti, jastr^it', jastriti
                      'look intently, vigilantly', Slovak. jastrit' 'id.', Pol. jastrzyc'
                      'id.'.

                      1.7 LSorb.(-Lus.) jasts'ebiny 'of hawk', Russ. jastrebi'nyj 'id.'
                      point to *astre,binUjI (probably < *astre,bI, like *golo,bI >
                      *golo,binUjI).

                      1.8. Bulg. ja'strebov 'of hawk', Mac. jastrebov 'id.', S-Cr.
                      ja"stre^bov 'id.'. Point to *astre,bovU.

                      So, a direct comparative procedure (not speculative etymologizing)
                      yields *(j)astre,bU, probably also *(j)astre,bI, *(j)astro,bU and *(j)
                      astrU. Why *asUtre,bU and especially *asUstre,bU?

                      2. What makes you think < *o:k^u-ptr-o- is a "majority view"? I'm
                      aware of the following:

                      2.1 The etymology which looks like the "majority view" is <
                      *o:k^ro-/*a:k^ro- 'fast (?)' + *-mbH- (/-embH-) 'animals' names-
                      forming suffix', while Latin accipiter is etymologized as <*a:k^i-
                      /*a:k^u-. At least my sources (Vasmer, Trubachev et al.) state that
                      it's more or less the point of view shared by Brugmann, Meillet,
                      Vaillant, Petersson, Berneker, Sobolevskij, Bru"kner, Niedermann,
                      Specht, Sl/awski, Vasmer, Shevelov, Sadnik, Aitzetmu"ler.

                      Haas thinks the Slavic word is related to Greek (<pre-Greek)
                      Astrabakos 'a hero's nom. pr.' < *ok^rnbho- (supported in Sadnik-
                      Aitzetmu"ller's dictionary).

                      2.2 I don't know who has supported Vey's etymology unreservedly,
                      except Machek, though he offered a slightly different solution: <
                      *o:k^u-pet-ros, a (problematic) cognate of accipiter.

                      2.3 There's a number of more exotic/marginal points of view, among
                      them:

                      2.3.1 Loewenthal: akin to Venetic Assoparis 'hawk's nestling' <
                      Illyr. *assos 'hawk' < PIE *attos, a possible cognate of OIrish a'ith
                      'sharp', Lett. a:trs.
                      2.3.2 Mayer: akin to Late Latin astur 'hawk' < Messap. < PIE *astr,
                      cf. Latin uultur 'kite'.
                      2.3.3 Jagic': *ostrU 'fast (?)' + *re,bU 'speckled'.
                      2.3.4 Uhlenbeck, Fraenkel, Bulakhovskij: *jast(I)-re,bU 'patrige-
                      eater'.
                      2.3.5 Bubrikh: < *n:t-trmbH- 'duck-thrasher'.
                      2.3.6 Sadnik and Aitzetmu"ler: prefix *ja- + *stre,bU (the latter not
                      etymologized).


                      Sergei
                    • Sergejus Tarasovas
                      ... Balto-Slavic? Cf. *dah2i-wer- (Latv. die^veris). ... Thanks. It s a possible gap in my Balto-Slavic education. I ll check it up. Sergei
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                        --- In cybalist@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
                        > But don't nuclei resulting from -VHV- contraction become acuted in
                        Balto-Slavic? Cf. *dah2i-wer- (Latv. die^veris).
                        >

                        Thanks. It's a possible gap in my Balto-Slavic education. I'll check
                        it up.

                        Sergei
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