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Re: [tied] Re: Zeus roles and the IE trinity reviewed

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  • João S. Lopes Filho
    Your ideas are very likely, but I have doubts about the links of Teutates, Quirinus and Freyr with water. I suspect that IE triad in Greece was synchretized
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 1, 2001
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      Your ideas are very likely, but I have doubts about the links of Teutates,
      Quirinus and Freyr with water.
      I suspect that IE triad in Greece was synchretized differently along the
      many regions of Greece.

      My identification of Indra-Mitra-Varuna to Zeus-Hades-Poseidon was slightly
      different from Robert Graves's assumptions.

      I think in Greece the law-giving god (cf. Mitra, Mithra, Tyr) was
      substituted by the First Man, king of the dead, judge od the dead (cf.
      Minos, Hades, Manu, Yama). So, Mino:s ( *Mino:u- a deviant form of IE
      *Manu-), king of the Hais (*Sm-wid- "place of gathering", cf. Slavic
      s-vidat-, see Puhvel), kept the name of the place (Ha:is>Ha:ide:s>Ha:des).
      Thus, this Greek Death-king substituted the older Death-queen (cf.
      Persephone, Ereshkigal), probably absorbing a minor consort of the Queen of
      Dead, a god of corn.

      I base my link between Poseidon and Varuna could be the watery aspect of
      Indian Varuna, but now I think this trait could be an influence of Sumerian
      Enki-Ea). So, I reviewed my triad as Zeus-Hades-Poseidon =
      Indra(+Varuna?)-Mitra(+Varuna?)-Vayu. Ha:des, as a hatred terrible god,
      could have elements of Varuna, or perhaps the Terrible Sovereign trait was
      absorbed by Zeus (as in Roman, Jupiter Stator). Poseidon was a violent god,
      linked to horses. Swift horses are usually called "wind's children", so I
      think one (among the many another ones) trait of Poseidon was a Wind God
      (cf. his son Aiolos). Other possibility, to fit the Dumezilian triad is to
      consider Poseidon as the fecundity male god (similar to Freyr and Quirinus),
      father of heroes, ancestor of peoples (mainly the Aeolian).
      I usually consider the Twins as children of the equine Wind-God (Poseidon,
      Aiolos, Boreas) and a demonic goddess of darkness, nightmares and alcohol
      (cf. Medousa, Medb, Madhavi:, Erinys, Saranyu). But another possibility I'm
      considering now is that Twins' father was the Fecundity god, and he was
      equine, instead Wind-God. Perhaps Wind-God animal is more the wolf
      (symbolism seen in Bhima), or perhaps the tiger (if we consider the IE
      inhabit a territory with tigers). Other animal symbolism of the Third
      Function could be the boar (Freyr, Mars, Vishnu) or the bull (Poseidon,
      Shiva) or the stag (Freyr, Shiva, Cernunos).
      So, my triad scheme is now closer to yours.

      Hades-Zeus- Poseidon = Mitra - Indra - Vayu (Ashvins) = Odinn - Thorr -
      Freyr

      [justice-death] - [storm-war] - [fecundity(-horse?-water?)]

      In Northern Europe, the Terrible Sovereign seemed to have been merged to the
      death-god.

      We still have to discuss more this watery aspect of the Third Function God.
      Potrimpo has sure watery traits; in Freyr they are more weak, but he's son
      of a Sea god, Njoerd, and he's got a ship.I see many parallels between
      Freyr, Manannan/Manawyddan and Kubera : wealthy, three-legs (M. and K.),
      flying ship, magic sword; they were brothers or half-brothers of a giant,
      underworld, dark deity (Ravana and Bran, Freyr's brother's identification is
      more complicated, maybe Surtur "the dark one", his Ragnarok rival; maybe
      Beli; maybe Njord, his father).

      Or would be the watery traits an element of Nasatyas? IE Twins are usually
      related to vegetal and water symbolism, cf. Am@r@ta:t and Haurvata:t.

      IE seemed to be a god the symbolized the male fecundity, he's the father of
      people (Vofionu < Leudhiyono-, Liber < *Leudhero-, Quirinus < *Co-virinus ),
      the ithyphallic Freyr, Celtic Teutates, probably one of the traits of Irish
      Dagda. In Greece this character "contaminated" Hermes, Dionysos, Eros,
      Poseidon, young Zeus. In India the most plausible candidate was Shiva
      (merged to the Neolithic Beast-lord, as in Europe too).



      Joao SL
      Rio

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Christopher Gwinn <sonno3@...>
      To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 1:44 PM
      Subject: [tied] Re: Zeus roles


      >
      > > 6- Zeus-Poseidon-Hades = Sem Baal-Yam-Moth = IE Indra-Varuna-Mitra
      > (???)
      >
      > I would prefer to see:
      > Hades-Zeus-Poseidon = Mitra/Varuna-Indra/Vayu-Asvins
      > [death][storm][horses]=[death][storm][horses]
      >
      > There may be some reflections of an Indo-Iranian trinity in the Kafir
      > pantheon:
      >
      > Imra/Mon-Gish-Bagisht
      > [creator][war][waters]
      > Imra and Mon are the equivalents of Yama-raja & Manu.
      >
      > Compare the Prussian trinity:
      >
      > Pecullo-Percuno-Potrimpo
      > [death][thunder][waters]
      >
      > Which seems to match the Norse:
      >
      > Odinn-Thorr-Freyr
      > [death/father][thunder/war][waters]
      >
      > And the similar Gaulish:
      >
      > Esus-Taranis-Teutates
      > [?father][thunder][waters/healer/"peoples' god"]
      > There is an attested Gaulish personal name, likely taken from a
      > divine name, Esuateros "Father-Esus" which may have been a
      > replacement for *Dyeus pater in Gaulish
      >
      > The Gaulish trinity basically matches the Roman trinity:
      >
      > Jupiter-Mars-Quirinus
      > [sky father][war]["peoples' god"]
      >
      > The PIE trinity may have been:
      >
      > Death god/Creator - War/Storms - Waters/Horses/Healer
      >
      > - Chris Gwinn
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Christopher Gwinn
      ... Teutates, ... For Quirinus, I am not sure of water connections, but Teutates sacrificial victims were drowned in giant vats of liquid. Teutates was
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 1, 2001
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        > Your ideas are very likely, but I have doubts about the links of
        Teutates,
        > Quirinus and Freyr with water.

        For Quirinus, I am not sure of water connections, but Teutates'
        sacrificial victims were drowned in giant vats of liquid. Teutates
        was normally connected with Mars, as was Nodons in Britain - Nodons =
        Irish Nuadu, a god certainly connected with waters (the Mars
        connection was due to Mars secondary function as healer).

        > I suspect that IE triad in Greece was synchretized differently
        along the
        > many regions of Greece.

        True.



        > Poseidon was a violent god,
        > linked to horses. Swift horses are usually called "wind's
        children", so I
        > think one (among the many another ones) trait of Poseidon was a
        Wind God
        > (cf. his son Aiolos). Other possibility, to fit the Dumezilian
        triad is to
        > consider Poseidon as the fecundity male god (similar to Freyr and
        Quirinus),
        > father of heroes, ancestor of peoples (mainly the Aeolian).
        > I usually consider the Twins as children of the equine Wind-God
        (Poseidon,
        > Aiolos, Boreas) and a demonic goddess of darkness, nightmares and
        alcohol
        > (cf. Medousa, Medb, Madhavi:, Erinys, Saranyu). But another
        possibility I'm
        > considering now is that Twins' father was the Fecundity god, and he
        was
        > equine, instead Wind-God. Perhaps Wind-God animal is more the wolf
        > (symbolism seen in Bhima), or perhaps the tiger (if we consider the
        IE
        > inhabit a territory with tigers).


        It is generally thought that the Divine Horse Twins' father was a
        sun/sky god, though. I have read in O'Rahilly's Early Irish History
        and Mythology that



        > Or would be the watery traits an element of Nasatyas? IE Twins are
        usually
        > related to vegetal and water symbolism, cf. Am@r@ta:t and
        Haurvata:t.

        I'll need to check some of my sources, but I am almost certain that
        the Nasatyas had watery connections.

        - Chris Gwinn
      • Christopher Gwinn
        ... Oops, forgot to finish my thought! In O Rahilly s EIHM, it is stated that Macha, mother of twins with horse traits, had as her byname Grian, meaning Sun
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 1, 2001
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          > It is generally thought that the Divine Horse Twins' father was a
          > sun/sky god, though. I have read in O'Rahilly's Early Irish History
          > and Mythology that
          >

          Oops, forgot to finish my thought!

          In O'Rahilly's EIHM, it is stated that Macha, mother of twins with
          horse traits, had as her byname Grian, meaning "Sun" in Old Irish. I
          believe in some Vedic sources, Manu and Yama are said to be brothers
          (along with the femal Yami/Yamuna) and sons of the Sun god, which
          would link them to the Asvins.

          - Chris Gwinn
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