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50763Re: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

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  • fournet.arnaud
    Dec 7, 2007
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      The current state of my own classification does not follow
      usual limits such as Nostratic or ST.
      So far, my groups are :
       
      A. Paleo-European
      Mainly Basque and Etruscan
      Features : *l and *r > [s] written -z- in basque
      *d and *t? > l and r
      MAin contrast is : glottalized versus unvoiced.
      Voiced rare.
       
      B. Mediterranean
      PIE + PAA
      PIE includes : hurri and Yenissei and North-Caucasian
      Features : highly complex morphology
      including vowel apophony to express tenses and
      a large array of infixes, prefixes, suffixes.
      The "real" root is often hard to retrieve.
      Grammatical genders : most often two.
      Verbal derivatives (nomen actionis) absurdly belong to
      the feminine gender, even when neuter exists,
      something that makes no semantic sense at all.
      PAA : does not include some parts of Greenberg's Tchadic
      probably includes Kushitic, probably does not include Omotic.
      Velar nasal > & as in ngay-in
      ng-g- > *gh (most often non satem)
       
      C. Kartvelian
      no clear connection with any other group
      phonetically conservative.
      Probably its own group.
       
      D. Center-Asiatic
      D1 : Uralic, Tibetan
      (extensive use of suffixes mo ma mi po pa pi)
      D2 : Chinese, Yi-lolo,
      Tonogenesis because of media and codas :
      glottalized or voiced or unvoiced yield different tones.
      D3 : Turcic, Eskimo
      D4 : Japanese, Aleut.
      Others : position unclear :
      mongolian, gilyak, ainu, tungusic
      Korean : not studied.
      Main features :
      -l- > yod
      English shoulter < *s-kl-tr
      North Caucasian : gäl (from Starostin)
      Proto-Yenissei : *qol (from Starostin)
      Uralic kay- : Hungarian haynal, hanyal "arm-pit"
      Chinese : FuZhou kaing < *koy-in
      Languages that have -l- when Center-Asiatic has -y-
      are group B
      Starostin is worth reading for the data.
       
      velar nasal is kept and reinforced by ng-g- > ng.
      ngay : to see
      ngay-in : eye
      FuZhou : ngaing
      Arabic : &ayin
      PIE : prefix : T+&ay > dhay "to see"
      Uralic : ngay > nay : Moksha : näy- "to see"
       
      My fetish cognate for this group : *naw "soft"
      Or maybe *nab
      Naked form :
      Yi lolo : no or nyo
      Chinese : BeiJing rou < *nyew < *naw
      Extension 1 :
      Chinese : BeiJing ruan3 < *nawan?
      Extension 2 :
      Uralic : Hungarian la:gy < *nawandzh
      Extension 3 :
      Turcic : Uighur nyawlek < *nawanak
      Japanese : yawaraka
       
      Burmese : po : not the same as usual
      Germanic : a loanword as usual : *sanft < s-nab-tos
      Germanic is in favor of *nab as the proto-form.
       
      E : South Asia
      Burmese
      all the rest unclassified
       
      Arnaud
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 7:44 PM
      Subject: Re: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

      Since I don't have the wherewithal to judge, please
      tell me how Yenesseian is related to IE. Is it
      Nostratic? How close is it related to Uralic, then?

      --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr>
      wrote:

      > I am afraid not,
      > whatever you label "sino-tibetan"
      > Yenissei is just a (forgotten and overlooked) branch
      > of Indo-European,
      > They are the only languages 2 000 miles around
      > that have masculine, feminine and neutral gender,
      > Ket and Kot are not close relative of Tibetan and
      > Chinese.
      > They belong to PIE,
      > And they originate in Anatolia, just like the rest
      > of PIE.
      >
      > Starostin's analyses are worth nothing.
      > Requiescat in pace.
      >
      > Arnaud
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Rick McCallister
      > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:15 PM
      > Subject: Re: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs.
      > nighingale)
      >
      >
      > And the southern end of the Yenessei is the
      > original
      > home of Ket et al. So are you linking Sino-Tibetan
      > &
      > Uralic to Yenesseian?
      >
      > --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > Arnaud to Torsten,
      > >
      > > One reference is interesting as far as I am
      > > concerned :
      > >
      >
      >
      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/42758
      > >
      > > I disagree with the idea that SiChuan is the
      > > homeland of Tibeto-Birman,
      > > for at least two reasons :
      > > 1. I do not believe Tibeto-Birman is a
      > legitimate
      > > family,
      > > 2. Next, I think Uralic is the closest parent to
      > > Tibetan and Chinese,
      > > even though this statement requires
      > documentation.
      > > I believe Tibetan and Uralic originate in the
      > > southern basin of Ob and Ienissei Rivers.
      > >
      > > I have previously discussed the word "egg" :
      > > Chinese dan4 < *tox-an
      > > Micro-burmese *tuj < *tox
      > > Compare Hungarian toj-ash "egg" < *tox
      > >
      > > Arnaud
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: tgpedersen
      > > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:54 PM
      > > Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re: [tied] Anser
      > > (was: swallow vs. nighingale)
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com,
      > "fournet.arnaud"
      > > <fournet.arnaud@ ...>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: tgpedersen
      > > > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
      > > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:29 AM
      > > > Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re: [tied]
      > Anser
      > > (was: swallow vs.
      > > nighingale)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > How do you know that?
      > > >
      > > > Myself, I think there was some kind of
      > sea-born
      > > trade with SEAsia
      > > > going on them, possibly around Africa, which
      > > accounts for these words
      > > > as loanwords from SEAsia.
      > > >
      > > > You will enjoy these:
      > > >
      > http://www.angelfir e.com/rant/ tgpedersen/ Op.html
      > > >
      > >
      > http://www.angelfir e.com/rant/ tgpedersen/ Opr.html
      > > >
      > > > Torsten
      > > > =========
      > > >
      > > > A.F :
      > > >
      > > > I agree some words in PAA are loanwords from
      > SE
      > > Asia,
      > > > especially : kl_b "dog"
      > > > But I do not think *p_l is a loanword from SE
      > > Asia.
      > > > I was disappointed by your references :
      > nothing
      > > about "full"
      > > > I suppose something went wrong when giving the
      > > references.
      > >
      > > There are a few references in the bottom. But
      > > you're right, here is
      > > the real reference:
      > > http://www.angelfir e.com/rant/ tgpedersen/ pl.html
      > >
      > > The whole area of 'manifestations' of *p-l- etc
      > > suffers from what I
      > > unsavourily referred to as the spittoon problem
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/8719
      > >
      > > which is why the way I've divided up the whole
      > > field into roots is
      > > somewhat arbitrary, here's another part of it:
      > >
      > http://www.angelfir e.com/rant/ tgpedersen/ bHrl.html
      > >
      > > On the origin of these terms, this is relevants:
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/45555
      > > What I think happened is that some type of early
      > > geometry, a theory of
      > > weights and measures, was developed in China or
      > > environs (as much as
      > > early agriculture needed, with fixed boundaries
      > > between pieces of
      > > land), and that it was exported, and with it the
      > > various words.
      > > You might want to read the article I refer to.
      > It
      > > is
      > > Matisoff, James A.:
      > > 1988. "Universal semantics and allofamic
      > > identification -- two
      > > Sino-Tibetan case-studies: STRAIGHT / FLAT /
      > FULL
      > > and PROPERTY /
      > > LIVESTOCK / TALENT."
      > > In Akihiro Sato, ed.,
      > > Languages and History in East Asia, pp. 3-14.
      > > Kyoto: Shokado.
      > >
      > > Also
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/42758
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/43973
      > >
      > > Torsten
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
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