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15907[tied] Re: Pliny's "Guthalvs"

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  • ravichaudhary2000
    Oct 3, 2002
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      As far as I can see, the identification of the Massagetae and
      Thyssagetae with
      the Getae results from a misunderstanding. The suffix -ta (< *ta:) in
      a group of
      northern Iranian languages (including Sogdian and modern Ossetic and
      Yaghnobi) forms plural (historically collective) nouns, hence its
      occurrence in tribal names (cf. Paralatae, Sarmatae). The common part
      in the
      two names above is not -getae but rather -sage-tae (*-sagI-ta) = the
      plural of
      *sagI < *sakah 'Saka'. The names are explained as "Great Sakas"
      and "Strong
      Sakas", respectively, in Iranian terms.

      Ravi> Thanks.

      On Masagagetae and Getae.

      Would you read Getae, as Ge – tae or Get – ae ?.

      The Ta Yueh Chi (Chinese source) or Siao- Yueh chi, and I see
      different variants
      are also known as the Greater Yueh chi and Little Yueh chi. The
      Kushans are
      taken to a part of the Yueh Chi. (Kushan is not a tribe but Jat clan
      and they
      evolve their empire across north and central India)

      A reference to Degroot in WW Tarns's " the Greeks in India and
      Bactria, pp 296,
      give De Groot's reading of Yueh chi as " Goat – Si."

      Another reading I came across is ngwattia. Pronounced - Gutia,
      attributed to
      Karl Gren (reference in Dr H.S Pauria's book – Jats- origins,
      antiquities and

      The jats were known to Timur as Jateh in central Asia, and he had a
      hard time
      with them, until his prayers were answered and their horses were
      struck with
      disease. ( In his memoirs, to his chagrin he met up with them in
      India too and
      our version of his travels in India are a little different from his,
      but that is another

      What this seems to imply is that today's Jats, knew themselves as
      Jit, Jet, Get,
      Jateh, Git, Gitta, Jitta, Jut, Djat, and so on, and different people,
      they ran into
      would have known them and describes addressed them differently.


      The name of the Jats (Hindi ja:t.) is usually etymologised as Middle
      *jat.t.a- < Old Indo-Aryan *jarta- (cf. Skt. jartika-, a tribal name)

      Ravi> as a trivia, Jartika is confused as a tribal name, but is not
      thought to be so
      by the Jat historians. It only occurs once in the Mahabharata and not
      else and that too only in later recessions

      Jarta is attested inscriptional 6th century ad by the grammarian
      who says – Ajay jarto Hunan- The Jats defeated the Huns.

      And Panini attests Jat.( 5century BC?)

      Also in this period Gut or Gut-ia, Gut- asya, also show up, and the
      early seals of
      the 2nd Guptas (3rd to 6th century AD) show them as calling
      themselves Gut or
      Gutasya. Their clan name is Dharan, which is a Jat clan name. ####

      s all that I can tell you about its supposed origin at the moment.
      English "aw/au"
      (pronounced [O:], of course) for Hindi <a:> was a common substitution
      in colonial
      times, as in "juggernaut" for <jaganna:tH>. The OED gives the
      alternative early
      spellings Jett, Jutt (17th c.) and Jaut (18th c.), but I've never
      come across
      variants with initial <g->. What's your source for them?

      Ravi >On the British rendering of 'Gaut,' for Jat I got this from a
      Hindi book, from
      a person who had served in the British Indian Army, and was a jat

      This is just input, and your linguistic views would be most welcome !

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