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Re: [cw_bugs] slowing bugs

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  • Troy, W6HV
    DR and Fred, I just measured a weight from my Deluxe Model Mac Key and it s 7/8 in diameter by 1/4 deep. McElroy used the same weight on my Telegraph
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 18, 2007
      DR and Fred,
       
       I just measured a weight from my  "Deluxe Model Mac Key" and it's 7/8" in diameter by 1/4" deep. McElroy used the same weight on my "Telegraph Apparatus Co." model.
       
      73,
      Troy, W6HV
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 11:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [cw_bugs] slowing bugs

      Yes, that was exactly what came to mind, Fred.  The large diameter McElroy weights which allow the weight to be nearer the balance point.

      I don't have one to measure but they were significantly larger in diameter and thinner in thickness than the Vibroplex weights.

      The big diameter centers the weight at a certain spot.  I was speaking in a different perspective than you were - I was concentrating on the weight at the close to the pivot perspective, but what you're saying is also correct.

      McElroy weights permit a greater range of adjustment.  They concentrate the weight at a point on the vibrator and move the center of gravity much quicker than the Vibroplex weights.

      You and I will get the wording right eventually.  Hope you had a nice run.

      73

      DR

      On 6/18/07, cloud runner <KT5X@...> wrote:
      Actually, the style of weight to which I am referring was used on old MacElroy bugs.  The width was typically about 1/4 inch, but the diameter was perhaps 5/4 inch.  It is more the big diameter which puts the weight far out on the pendulum, than the total weight, that does the trick.
       
      73,  Fred
    • k4oso
      Hi Grover, Have you conducted any speed tests with your clamp yet? If so, what kind of results did you yield? Also, will there a picture(s)? Milt k4oso ...
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 18, 2007
        Hi Grover,
        Have you conducted any speed tests with your clamp yet? If so, what
        kind of results did you yield? Also, will there a picture(s)?
        Milt k4oso

        --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Grover Cleveland" <clevelandg@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Buggies All,
        >
        > I bought a large cable clamp of a size I believe is close to the
        one used on
        > the bug at KPH (http://www.radiomarine.org/Pictures/HIST-RS-OP-
        4.jpg). The
        > weight of the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. while the weight of the
        standard
        > Vibroplex weight is 0.4 oz. That's a significant difference.
        >
        > Grover K7TP
        >
        > On 6/17/07, David Ring <n1ea@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Yes, that was exactly what came to mind, Fred. The large
        diameter
        > > McElroy weights which allow the weight to be nearer the balance
        point.
        > >
        > > I don't have one to measure but they were significantly larger in
        diameter
        > > and thinner in thickness than the Vibroplex weights.
        > >
        > > The big diameter centers the weight at a certain spot. I was
        speaking in
        > > a different perspective than you were - I was concentrating on
        the weight at
        > > the close to the pivot perspective, but what you're saying is
        also correct.
        > >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Grover Cleveland K7TP
        >
        > "Morse - everything else is QRM"
        >
      • Grover Cleveland
        Buggies All, I attached a cable clamp to a standard Vibroplex to conduct tests on the weight s effectiveness. I concluded nothing in terms of speed that isn t
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 19, 2007
          Buggies All,

          I attached a cable clamp to a standard Vibroplex to conduct tests on the weight's effectiveness. I concluded nothing in terms of speed that isn't obvious.

          However, the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. and the standard Vibroplex weight is 0.4 oz. It would have the advantage, in line with the current discussion, of concentrating the weight in one spot on the pendulum.

          A photo is attached.

          Grover K7TP

          On 6/18/07, k4oso <k4oso@...> wrote:

          Hi Grover,
          Have you conducted any speed tests with your clamp yet? If so, what
          kind of results did you yield? Also, will there a picture(s)?
          Milt k4oso

          --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Grover Cleveland" <clevelandg@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Buggies All,
          >
          > I bought a large cable clamp of a size I believe is close to the
          one used on
          > the bug at KPH (http://www.radiomarine.org/Pictures/HIST-RS-OP-
          4.jpg). The
          > weight of the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. while the weight of the
          standard
          > Vibroplex weight is 0.4 oz. That's a significant difference.
          >




          --
          Grover Cleveland K7TP

          "Morse - everything else is QRM"
        • Richard Meiss
          Hi, Buggies - Been lurking for a long time, just listening to the scratchy dots and bug weight threads, and my 2 cents worth has come to the surface. Isaac
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 19, 2007
            Hi, Buggies -

                 Been lurking for a long time, just listening to the "scratchy dots" and "bug weight" threads, and my 2 cents worth has come to the surface.

                 Isaac Newton showed long ago that what matters about the effective mass of an object (as far as distant measurements go) is the center of mass.  This is why the law of universal gravitation treats the center-to-center distance between two massive bodies to calculate the gravitational attraction.  From a more earthly point of view (but just as important to a bug enthusiast) is the fact that for any cylindrical weight, whether it is long and thin or short and fat, the center of its mass will be on its long axis and equidistant from either end.  This is the distance from the pendulum spring that matters. 

                 The advantage of a short and fat weight is that it allows for a greater range of speed adjustment because it takes up less space on the pendulum and can be moved further back and forth.  The advantage of a long thin weight is that it is less likely to run into stuff (like terminal posts, damper supports, etc.) as the pendulum swings.  And a long thin weight with a setscrew near one end can be extended out beyond the actual end of the pendulum to provide greater slowing.
                 When I have finished my current round of bug-building, I intend to work further on a new way to slow a bug - by effectively (but not permanently) reducing the strength of the pendulum spring.  I will report back if I am successful (but probably not if it doesn't work!)

                 I have enjoyed the bits of bug lore that these posts have provided, and I have done a lot of book marking of interesting sites.  Thanks to all.

                 73 de Rich, WB9LPU


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Grover Cleveland
            Sent: Jun 19, 2007 9:42 AM
            To: cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [cw_bugs] Re: slowing bugs--CABLE CLAMP

            Buggies All,

            I attached a cable clamp to a standard Vibroplex to conduct tests on the weight's effectiveness. I concluded nothing in terms of speed that isn't obvious.

            However, the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. and the standard Vibroplex weight is 0.4 oz. It would have the advantage, in line with the current discussion, of concentrating the weight in one spot on the pendulum.

            A photo is attached.

            Grover K7TP

            On 6/18/07, k4oso <k4oso@...> wrote:

            Hi Grover,
            Have you conducted any speed tests with your clamp yet? If so, what
            kind of results did you yield? Also, will there a picture(s)?
            Milt k4oso

            --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com, "Grover Cleveland" <clevelandg@. ..>
            wrote:
            >
            > Buggies All,
            >
            > I bought a large cable clamp of a size I believe is close to the
            one used on
            > the bug at KPH (http://www.radiomar ine.org/Pictures /HIST-RS- OP-
            4.jpg). The
            > weight of the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. while the weight of the
            standard
            > Vibroplex weight is 0.4 oz. That's a significant difference.
            >




            --
            Grover Cleveland K7TP

            "Morse - everything else is QRM"

          • k4oso
            Hi Grover, Maybe I m the only one to whom its not obvious:-) But, what did you find out about speed, using the clamp? Nice pic....and appears to be
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 19, 2007
              Hi Grover,
              Maybe I'm the only one to whom its not obvious:-) But, what did you
              find out about speed, using the clamp?
              Nice pic....and appears to be historically correct.
              73, Milt k4oso

              --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Grover Cleveland" <clevelandg@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Buggies All,
              >
              > I attached a cable clamp to a standard Vibroplex to conduct tests
              on the
              > weight's effectiveness. I concluded nothing in terms of speed that
              isn't
              > obvious.
              >
              > However, the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. and the standard Vibroplex
              weight
              > is 0.4oz. It would have the advantage, in line with the current
              > discussion, of
              > concentrating the weight in one spot on the pendulum.
              >
              > A photo is attached.
              >
              > Grover K7TP
              >
              > On 6/18/07, k4oso <k4oso@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Grover,
              > > Have you conducted any speed tests with your clamp yet? If so,
              what
              > > kind of results did you yield? Also, will there a picture(s)?
              > > Milt k4oso
              > >
              > > --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com <cw_bugs%
              40yahoogroups.com>, "Grover
              > > Cleveland" <clevelandg@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Buggies All,
              > > >
              > > > I bought a large cable clamp of a size I believe is close to the
              > > one used on
              > > > the bug at KPH (http://www.radiomarine.org/Pictures/HIST-RS-OP-
              > > 4.jpg). The
              > > > weight of the cable clamp is 1.0 oz. while the weight of the
              > > standard
              > > > Vibroplex weight is 0.4 oz. That's a significant difference.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Grover Cleveland K7TP
              >
              > "Morse - everything else is QRM"
              >
            • Grover Cleveland
              Milt - What I discovered is that the effect of a one ounce weight at that point is that the speed (on my bug at least) is to reduce the speed to about 25 wpm.
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 19, 2007
                Milt -

                What I discovered is that the effect of a one ounce weight at that point is that the speed (on my bug at least) is to reduce the speed to about 25 wpm. With one standard weight (0.4 oz.) out at the end of the pendulum the speed was more like 30+ wpm. Your mileage may vary.

                Cheers,

                Grover K7TP

                On 6/19/07, k4oso <k4oso@...> wrote:

                Hi Grover,
                Maybe I'm the only one to whom its not obvious:-) But, what did you
                find out about speed, using the clamp?
                Nice pic....and appears to be historically correct.
                73, Milt k4oso



                --
                Grover Cleveland K7TP

                "Morse - everything else is QRM"
              • P. Grover Cleveland
                I noticed something else on Les Burger s bug (http://www.radiomarine.org/historic-5.html) that I had not noticed before. It would seem as though there is still
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 19, 2007
                  I noticed something else on Les Burger's bug
                  (http://www.radiomarine.org/historic-5.html)
                  that I had not noticed before. It would seem as though there is still
                  a standard Vibroplex weight at the end of pendulum, that is in
                  addition to the cable clamp. I'll purchase a larger cable clamp (I
                  think that the one I bought is a size too small) and add a standard
                  weight at the end of the arm as see what the result is.

                  Grover K7TP

                  'sperimentin' with bugs
                • n6vl
                  I earlier wrote off the McElroy idea. I had attached a flat style 1 oz weight to a .4 oz round weight on my Original using a long nylon screw. I still had
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 20, 2007
                    I earlier wrote off the McElroy idea. I had attached a flat style 1
                    oz weight to a .4 oz round weight on my Original using a long nylon
                    screw. I still had another .4 oz a little closer. The total weight
                    was 1.8 oz, from the three weights, was not enough to slow it down.
                    And the action felt shaky.

                    On further thought, that really isn't the equilavent of a McElroy
                    style weight. The extra weight was concentrated above the lever and
                    there was still two .4 oz weights present. I can't really claim I
                    tried the McElroy method.

                    I also found these adjustments are quite complex. There are many ways
                    to add the weight to slow down a bug. And the same method won't
                    behave the same way on a different bug.

                    I've been playing with my Original and found there are so many
                    interactions. It is too complex for a hobbyist like me to come up
                    with hard rules.

                    I'd like to see a photo of the McElroy bug. The idea is intriguing.

                    I also want to give the cable clamp a try. My Original has a 5/32"
                    diameter rod. I guess that is the size of cable clamp to look for. I
                    wonder if a pair of wing nuts would work for quick adjustments. They
                    might be too close and hit each other. Also a chrome job might be
                    neat on a cable clamp.

                    That said, I am sorry about writing off the McElroy weight earlier in
                    this thread. I am a newbie at bug and was a little impatient at the
                    results I was getting.

                    73,

                    Steve N6VL
                  • Troy, W6HV
                    Steve, A very nice photo of a McElroy bug like mine can be seen at http://www.w1tp.com/7627.jpg . 73, Troy, W6HV ... From:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 20, 2007
                      Steve, A very nice photo of a McElroy bug like mine can be seen at  http://www.w1tp.com/7627.jpg  .
                      73,
                      Troy, W6HV
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: n6vl
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:00 AM
                      Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: slowing bugs
                      ----------- I'd like to see a  photo of the McElroy bug. The idea is intriguing. ------------
                      73,

                      Steve N6VL



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