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Re: Vibroplex Rivets

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  • Jack B.
    No Glue - understood! First I ll have to flatten out the front lip of the plate (it was caught and bent up a bit by a previous owner), then decide if it will
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 3, 2008
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      No Glue - understood!

      First I'll have to flatten out the front lip of the plate (it was
      caught and bent up a bit by a previous owner), then decide if it will
      look good enough to re-use.

      You'll be happy to know that Vibroplex switched back to using riveted
      serial number plates when W4OA took over the operation in the 1990's.
      http://www.vibroplex.com/original_bug.html
      I can verify this with new bugs that I've purchased in the last couple
      years. Whether or not there's glue in addition to this, I don't know.

      My new bugs also have convex shaped contacts for both dot and dash,
      while my older bugs have flat contacts.

      73,

      Jack - N0NV




      --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "David Ring" <n1ea@...> wrote:
      >
      > Present day serial number Vibroplex aren't riveted, they're glued with
      > Duco. That makes them much harder - if not impossible - to restore.
      >
      > Similarly, the "red decorative piece" that fits into the top of the yoke
      > where the top trunnion screw usually goes (and still can go) is - in
      the new
      > models - glued with Duco cement rather than being a small red
      plastic part
      > with machined threads to fit the bore in the yoke as they used to be
      from
      > 1949 to about 1990 when this part was introduced due to WW2 models
      having
      > "operators misadjustment problems" caused by over tightening the top
      > trunnion screw until the jewel cracked.
      >
      > DO NOT glue the baseplate - you'll never remove it again if you do.
      >
      > Also, send the plate out for replating - it will cost you more to strip,
      > plate with copper, nickle and flash with heavy 24k gold than to buy
      a new
      > one from Vibroplex, but the looks and the quality will be
      exceedingly better
      > and it will last much much longer. In other words, the last time -
      before
      > gold went up in price - it would cost $60 to replate. It might be
      $65 to
      > $80 now with the increase in gold - but remember it's only a flash
      of gold -
      > get the HEAVY plate on it. Vibroplex does an inexpensive job in their
      > effort to keep costs reasonable, but if you're restoring, you're
      going to
      > spend the money anyway, so why not do it right. The majority of the
      cost in
      > gold plate is the preparation work - you have to strip, polish, plate
      > copper, plate nickel, then gold plate. So it is more than meets the
      usual
      > person's understanding and thus they think they're being over
      charged, which
      > they're usually not. But shop around, if you know a person who does
      musical
      > instruments, ask that person as that is the quality you want. I can't
      > overstate the prudence that doing the job with a good plater rather than
      > buying a replacement will make to your finished product in both
      looks and in
      > durability.
      >
      > 73
      > DR
      >
      > David Ring, N1EA
      > -30-
      >
      > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:19 AM, <wz4cw@...> wrote:
      >
      > > As I recall, all the Bug parts on top of the Gold Plated Brass Plate
      > > (GPBP) act like "nuts". Then the screws go into the Bug parts
      from the
      > > bottom of the base. That's what holds the GPBP down. I don't
      recall any
      > > glue being necessary.
      > > 73 Carl WZ4CW, SKCC 918, FISTS 13491
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Pete Haddad
      Hello All, I was just emailing a friend of mine, Bill, W4HEX and he has a response to this topic. I am attaching it below. We are both bug nuts, along with
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 3, 2008
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        Hello All,

        I was just emailing a friend of mine, Bill, W4HEX and he has a
        response to this topic. I am attaching it below. We are both bug
        nuts, along with Randy KB4QQJ, and Milt K4OSO and we try to be
        followers of WR Smith W4PAL the Key Restoration King..hi hi..but seem
        to come up with some help to one another on occassion.. anyway
        enjoyed the conversation and here are Bill's comments...

        Pete -

        You might add to the discussion that there is a source for
        replacement rivets if ever needed. I can machine these and currently
        have a few in stock. Mine will have to be plated as desired.

        - Bill

        I dont think Bill W4HEX is a member of the group so here is his email
        address ki4nov@... . yes this is correct it is his old
        call....hi..

        73

        Pete W5PEH


        --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
        > Presentation bug. My question is, how difficult is it to replace
        the
        > rivets which hold down the ID plate? Is it simply a matter of
        > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the
        top
        > afterward? If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to
        drive
        > them out.
        >
        > Thanks / 73
        >
        > Jack - N0NV
        >
      • David Ring
        You re right - I just checked my BR2000 key - it has rivets! Bravo. And the contacts, double bravo! Things are getting better! 73 DR
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 3, 2008
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          You're right - I just checked my BR2000 key - it has rivets!  Bravo.  And the contacts, double bravo!

          Things are getting better!

          73
          DR

          On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Jack B. <nzeronv@...> wrote:


          No Glue - understood!

          First I'll have to flatten out the front lip of the plate (it was
          caught and bent up a bit by a previous owner), then decide if it will
          look good enough to re-use.

          You'll be happy to know that Vibroplex switched back to using riveted
          serial number plates when W4OA took over the operation in the 1990's.
          http://www.vibroplex.com/original_bug.html
          I can verify this with new bugs that I've purchased in the last couple
          years.  Whether or not there's glue in addition to this, I don't know.

          My new bugs also have convex shaped contacts for both dot and dash,
          while my older bugs have flat contacts.

          73,

          Jack - N0NV




          --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "David Ring" <n1ea@...> wrote:
          >
          > Present day serial number Vibroplex aren't riveted, they're glued with
          > Duco.  That makes them much harder - if not impossible - to restore.
          >
          > Similarly, the "red decorative piece" that fits into the top of the yoke
          > where the top trunnion screw usually goes (and still can go) is - in
          the new
          > models - glued with Duco cement rather than being a small red
          plastic part
          > with machined threads to fit the bore in the yoke as they used to be
          from
          > 1949 to about 1990 when this part was introduced due to WW2 models
          having
          > "operators misadjustment problems" caused by over tightening the top
          > trunnion screw until the jewel cracked.
          >
          > DO NOT glue the baseplate - you'll never remove it again if you do.
          >
          > Also, send the plate out for replating - it will cost you more to strip,
          > plate with copper, nickle and flash with heavy 24k gold than to buy
          a new
          > one from Vibroplex, but the looks and the quality will be
          exceedingly better
          > and it will last much much longer.  In other words, the last time -
          before
          > gold went up in price - it would cost $60 to replate.  It might be
          $65 to
          > $80 now with the increase in gold - but remember it's only a flash
          of gold -
          > get the HEAVY plate on it.  Vibroplex does an inexpensive job in their
          > effort to keep costs reasonable, but if you're restoring, you're
          going to
          > spend the money anyway, so why not do it right.  The majority of the
          cost in
          > gold plate is the preparation work - you have to strip, polish, plate
          > copper, plate nickel, then gold plate.  So it is more than meets the
          usual
          > person's understanding and thus they think they're being over
          charged, which
          > they're usually not.  But shop around, if you know a person who does
          musical
          > instruments, ask that person as that is the quality you want.  I can't
          > overstate the prudence that doing the job with a good plater rather than
          > buying a replacement will make to your finished product in both
          looks and in
          > durability.
          >
          > 73
          > DR
          >
          > David Ring, N1EA
          > -30-
          >
          > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:19 AM, <wz4cw@...> wrote:
          >
          > >  As I recall, all the Bug parts on top of the Gold Plated Brass Plate
          > > (GPBP) act like "nuts".  Then the screws go into the Bug parts
          from the
          > > bottom of the base.  That's what holds the GPBP down.  I don't
          recall any
          > > glue  being necessary.
          > > 73     Carl  WZ4CW,   SKCC 918,    FISTS 13491
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >



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        • Jack B.
          I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed. After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one from Vibroplex because the
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 8, 2008
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            I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed.
            After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one
            from Vibroplex because the original was too bent up at the front.
            Also, I like to patronize the factory when it's practical to do so.

            I'll have to make sure I have a punch that won't slip off the rivets
            as I re-install things later. I want this to be a curse-free job.

            When I'm done, this will be my best bug -- functionally and
            cosmetically. A nice Christmas gift from me to me.

            73,

            Jack - N0NV



            --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
            > Presentation bug. My question is, how difficult is it to replace the
            > rivets which hold down the ID plate? Is it simply a matter of
            > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the top
            > afterward? If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to drive
            > them out.
            >
            > Thanks / 73
            >
            > Jack - N0NV
            >
          • Ron Johnson
            Best of luck Jack. Have a drink AFTER you ve done it. 73 Ron g3xov ... From: Jack B. Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: Vibroplex Rivets To:
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 8, 2008
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              Best of luck Jack. Have a drink AFTER you've done it.
              73 Ron g3xov


              --- On Mon, 8/12/08, Jack B. <nzeronv@...> wrote:
              From: Jack B. <nzeronv@...>
              Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: Vibroplex Rivets
              To: cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, 8 December, 2008, 6:29 PM


              I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed.
              After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one
              from Vibroplex because the original was too bent up at the front.
              Also, I like to patronize the factory when it's practical to do so.

              I'll have to make sure I have a punch that won't slip off the rivets
              as I re-install things later. I want this to be a curse-free job.

              When I'm done, this will be my best bug -- functionally and
              cosmetically. A nice Christmas gift from me to me.

              73,

              Jack - N0NV

              --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@... > wrote:
              >
              >
              > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
              > Presentation bug. My question is, how difficult is it to replace the
              > rivets which hold down the ID plate? Is it simply a matter of
              > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the top
              > afterward? If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to drive
              > them out.
              >
              > Thanks / 73
              >
              > Jack - N0NV
              >

            • Jack B.
              Rest assured, only the bug will be having a punch and getting hammered (.... ..) Jack - N0NV
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 8, 2008
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                Rest assured, only the bug will be 'having a punch' and 'getting
                hammered' (.... ..)

                Jack - N0NV



                --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, Ron Johnson <ron538@...> wrote:
                >
                > Best of luck Jack. Have a drink AFTER you've done it.
                > 73 Ron g3xov
                >
                >
                > --- On Mon, 8/12/08, Jack B. <nzeronv@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Jack B. <nzeronv@...>
                > Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: Vibroplex Rivets
                > To: cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, 8 December, 2008, 6:29 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed.
                > After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one
                > from Vibroplex because the original was too bent up at the front.
                > Also, I like to patronize the factory when it's practical to do so.
                >
                > I'll have to make sure I have a punch that won't slip off the rivets
                > as I re-install things later. I want this to be a curse-free job.
                >
                > When I'm done, this will be my best bug -- functionally and
                > cosmetically. A nice Christmas gift from me to me.
                >
                > 73,
                >
                > Jack - N0NV
                >
                > --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@ > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
                > > Presentation bug. My question is, how difficult is it to replace the
                > > rivets which hold down the ID plate? Is it simply a matter of
                > > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the top
                > > afterward? If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to drive
                > > them out.
                > >
                > > Thanks / 73
                > >
                > > Jack - N0NV
                > >
                >
              • Richard Meiss
                Hi, Jack - To protect against slips , get a flat piece of metal or plexiglass plastic and drill a hole through it just the diameter of the rivet s head. Put
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 8, 2008
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                  Hi, Jack -

                       To protect against "slips", get a flat piece of metal or plexiglass plastic and drill a hole through it just the diameter of the rivet's head.  Put the rivet through this and start it into the hole, then use the pin punch.  The drilled hole will prevent the punch from slipping off.  Then have the drink.

                       73 de Rich, WB9LPU



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: "Jack B."
                  Sent: Dec 8, 2008 4:59 PM
                  To: cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: Vibroplex Rivets


                  Rest assured, only the bug will be 'having a punch' and 'getting
                  hammered' (.... ..)

                  Jack - N0NV

                  --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com, Ron Johnson <ron538@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Best of luck Jack. Have a drink AFTER you've done it.
                  > 73 Ron g3xov
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 8/12/08, Jack B. <nzeronv@... > wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Jack B. <nzeronv@... >
                  > Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: Vibroplex Rivets
                  > To: cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com
                  > Date: Monday, 8 December, 2008, 6:29 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed.
                  > After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one
                  > from Vibroplex because the original was too bent up at the front.
                  > Also, I like to patronize the factory when it's practical to do so.
                  >
                  > I'll have to make sure I have a punch that won't slip off the rivets
                  > as I re-install things later. I want this to be a curse-free job.
                  >
                  > When I'm done, this will be my best bug -- functionally and
                  > cosmetically. A nice Christmas gift from me to me.
                  >
                  > 73,
                  >
                  > Jack - N0NV
                  >
                  > --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
                  > > Presentation bug. My question is, how difficult is it to replace the
                  > > rivets which hold down the ID plate? Is it simply a matter of
                  > > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the top
                  > > afterward? If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to drive
                  > > them out.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks / 73
                  > >
                  > > Jack - N0NV
                  > >
                  >

                • Jack B.
                  I called Vibroplex and I was told they are in the process of changing the vendor who does their chrome and gold plating, so they can t provide a finished gold
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 9, 2008
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                    I called Vibroplex and I was told they are in the process of changing
                    the vendor who does their chrome and gold plating, so they can't
                    provide a finished gold plate for the Presentation any time soon. No
                    word as to the reason for changing platers, but I hope they find a
                    good one.

                    Looks like I'll have to straighten out the old brass and use a local
                    plater after all.

                    Jack - N0NV



                    --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed.
                    > After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one
                    > from Vibroplex because the original was too bent up at the front.
                    > Also, I like to patronize the factory when it's practical to do so.
                    >
                    > I'll have to make sure I have a punch that won't slip off the rivets
                    > as I re-install things later. I want this to be a curse-free job.
                    >
                    > When I'm done, this will be my best bug -- functionally and
                    > cosmetically. A nice Christmas gift from me to me.
                    >
                    > 73,
                    >
                    > Jack - N0NV
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
                    > > Presentation bug. My question is, how difficult is it to replace the
                    > > rivets which hold down the ID plate? Is it simply a matter of
                    > > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the top
                    > > afterward? If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to drive
                    > > them out.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks / 73
                    > >
                    > > Jack - N0NV
                    > >
                    >
                  • David Ring
                    If you don t want to do this, contact Vibroplex and ask them to sell you an unplated brass overlay used on the Presentation model of the Vibroplex Original
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 9, 2008
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                      If you don't want to do this, contact Vibroplex and ask them to sell you an unplated brass overlay used on the Presentation model of the Vibroplex Original bug, it will fit both the current gold topped Original model and the previous Presentation model.

                      73

                      David N1EA

                      -30-


                      On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Jack B. <nzeronv@...> wrote:

                      I called Vibroplex and I was told they are in the process of changing
                      the vendor who does their chrome and gold plating, so they can't
                      provide a finished gold plate for the Presentation any time soon. No
                      word as to the reason for changing platers, but I hope they find a
                      good one.

                      Looks like I'll have to straighten out the old brass and use a local
                      plater after all.

                      Jack - N0NV



                      --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I was able to borrow a pin punch, which worked very well indeed.
                      > After inspecting the gold-plated plate, I decided to buy a new one
                      > from Vibroplex because the original was too bent up at the front.
                      > Also, I like to patronize the factory when it's practical to do so.
                      >
                      > I'll have to make sure I have a punch that won't slip off the rivets
                      > as I re-install things later.  I want this to be a curse-free job.
                      >
                      > When I'm done, this will be my best bug -- functionally and
                      > cosmetically.  A nice Christmas gift from me to me.
                      >
                      > 73,
                      >
                      > Jack - N0NV
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'd like to replace the gold-plated brass plate on a Vibroplex
                      > > Presentation bug.  My question is, how difficult is it to replace the
                      > > rivets which hold down the ID plate?  Is it simply a matter of
                      > > punching them out from the bottom, then hammering them in from the top
                      > > afterward?  If that's the case, I'll need a very narrow punch to drive
                      > > them out.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks / 73
                      > >
                      > > Jack - N0NV
                      > >
                      >



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                    • Earl Needham
                      ... I suspect they didn t get the results they wanted from the old plater. Remember, they had NUMEROUS seconds for poor plating, pitting, etc., during the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 11, 2008
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                        Jack B. wrote:
                        > I called Vibroplex and I was told they are in the process of changing
                        > the vendor who does their chrome and gold plating, so they can't
                        > provide a finished gold plate for the Presentation any time soon. No
                        > word as to the reason for changing platers, but I hope they find a
                        > good one.
                        >
                        I suspect they didn't get the results they wanted from the old plater. Remember, they had NUMEROUS "seconds" for poor plating, pitting, etc., during the past couple of years.

                        7 3
                        Earl

                        --
                        KD5XB -- Earl Needham
                        Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs
                        Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT
                      • ve7bgp
                        Hello All on this Thread In September I got a old 54 Blue Racer that was in really nice shape except the Paint was peeling off it it was not primed properly
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 11, 2008
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                          Hello All on this Thread
                          In September I got a old '54 Blue Racer that was in really nice shape
                          except the Paint was peeling off it it was not primed properly in the
                          Factory. I wanted to refinish the base of that bug. The Rivets on the
                          plate was my worst worry about doing that job. The Rivets punched out
                          nicely with a little hand punch my Dad made out of an old Choke Cable
                          from a wrecked car. I got the base nicely refinished in Tremclad Gray
                          Hammertone and let it set a couple of days. The first part to put on
                          the Bug when you are reassembling it is the label. I lined the label
                          and started the pins with a Fine Needle nosed Pliers. I used the
                          Plastic Handle of a medium sized screwdriver to gently drive in the
                          rivets. They are easy to put in and do not need much force at all. I
                          hope that helps.
                          73
                          Gerry VE7BGP
                        • Jack B.
                          My new gold-plated brass plate has been plated with electroless nickel plate, .0003 min thick, followed by bright hard gold plate, .000010 thick . I don t
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 23, 2008
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                            My new gold-plated brass plate has been plated with "electroless
                            nickel plate, .0003 min thick, followed by bright hard gold plate,
                            .000010 thick". I don't know how much better this is than the plating
                            originally put on by Vibroplex, but it sure looks great! I
                            re-inserted the rivet pins using the inverted screwdriver technique
                            mentioned by Gerry.

                            There were some hardships regarding the plate, which I have posted on
                            my web site:

                            http://members.tcq.net/nzeronv/presentation_bug_227915_gpbp.pdf

                            Thanks for all the helpful advice from everyone.

                            73,

                            Jack - N0NV
                          • Jack B.
                            P.S. I think I ll have that drink now. .... .. -Jack-
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 23, 2008
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                              P.S. I think I'll have that drink now.
                              .... ..

                              -Jack-


                              --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > My new gold-plated brass plate has been plated with "electroless
                              > nickel plate, .0003 min thick, followed by bright hard gold plate,
                              > .000010 thick". I don't know how much better this is than the plating
                              > originally put on by Vibroplex, but it sure looks great! I
                              > re-inserted the rivet pins using the inverted screwdriver technique
                              > mentioned by Gerry.
                              >
                              > There were some hardships regarding the plate, which I have posted on
                              > my web site:
                              >
                              > http://members.tcq.net/nzeronv/presentation_bug_227915_gpbp.pdf
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the helpful advice from everyone.
                              >
                              > 73,
                              >
                              > Jack - N0NV
                              >
                            • Ron Johnson
                              Well done Jack. A shame it s not full size but it looks good. Yes, go and get that drink and have a great Christmas. Regards, Ron g3xov ... From: Jack B.
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 23, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Well done Jack. A shame it's not full size but it looks good.
                                Yes, go and get that drink and have a great Christmas.
                                Regards, Ron g3xov


                                --- On Tue, 23/12/08, Jack B. <nzeronv@...> wrote:
                                From: Jack B. <nzeronv@...>
                                Subject: [cw_bugs] Re: Vibroplex Rivets - Replacing the Presentation Plate
                                To: cw_bugs@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, 23 December, 2008, 11:27 PM



                                P.S. I think I'll have that drink now.
                                .... ..

                                -Jack-

                                --- In cw_bugs@yahoogroups .com, "Jack B." <nzeronv@... > wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > My new gold-plated brass plate has been plated with "electroless
                                > nickel plate, .0003 min thick, followed by bright hard gold plate,
                                > .000010 thick". I don't know how much better this is than the plating
                                > originally put on by Vibroplex, but it sure looks great! I
                                > re-inserted the rivet pins using the inverted screwdriver technique
                                > mentioned by Gerry.
                                >
                                > There were some hardships regarding the plate, which I have posted on
                                > my web site:
                                >
                                > http://members. tcq.net/nzeronv/ presentation_ bug_227915_ gpbp.pdf
                                >
                                > Thanks for all the helpful advice from everyone.
                                >
                                > 73,
                                >
                                > Jack - N0NV
                                >

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