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RE: [cw] Announcement: d20 Template for Metacreator

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  • Fesarius
    Any guess what the price might be at this point?
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 10, 2003
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      Any guess what the price might be at this point?
    • Scott Stewart
      This is great news. Maybe I can then customize it for my Star Wars RPG. Are you sure about all the features you ve listed in the user responsiblity area. The
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 10, 2003
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        This is great news. Maybe I can then customize it for my Star Wars
        RPG.

        Are you sure about all the features you've listed in the user
        responsiblity area. The Public Domain program PCGEN is completely OGL
        compliant, and it includes all features for class advancement,
        including experience point needed and both class features, new feat,
        and attribute improvements.

        -------
        Scott Stewart
        ss2art@...

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bruce Kvam [mailto:bkvam@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 10:52 AM
        > To: CW
        > Subject: [cw] Announcement: d20 Template for Metacreator
        >
        >
        > Alter Ego Software is working on a d20 template, to be
        > released this summer.
        >
        > Supported features of the template include:
        >
        > * All the standard character classes and races
        > * All spells, skills, feats, special abilities
        > * Monster races
        > * Template character races (vampires, liches, lycanthropes, etc.)
        > * Support of all magic items
        > * Creation of magic items by characters
        > * Random treasure selection
        > * Monster and encounter generation
        > * Multipage character sheet printing
        > * Combat summary sheets
        > * Users can add new classes, skills, feats, special
        > abilities, races,
        > monsters, etc.
        >
        > Due to the requirements of the d20 licensing agreement,
        > users will be
        > responsible for providing information from the Core
        > Rulebooks relating to
        > character creation and advancement. This, however, provides
        > additional
        > flexibility by allowing for total customization of these
        > aspects by users.
        >
        > You must provide your own experience table or function,
        > ability score
        > generation method, starting money, the frequency with which
        > feats and
        > ability score increases are allowed, etc. All you need to
        > do this is the
        > Player's Handbook.
        >
        > The template is based on the d20 System Reference Document
        > (SRD), which does
        > differ from the Core Rulebooks, specifically with the
        > omission of some
        > monsters and magic items. Also, some spells and items in
        > the SRD have
        > different names than their counterparts in the Core Rulebooks.
        >
        > Bruce Kvam
        > Alter Ego Software, Inc.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ---------------------~-->
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        > ------------------------------------------------------------
        > ---------~->
        >
        > --------------
        > Find out more about Creation Workshop by visiting the Hero
        > Games Web Site at http://www.herogames.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Fesarius
        ... Code Monkey, the developer association that produces PCGen, struck an agreement with WoTC that, I think, allows them to do this. WoTC was upset with them
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 11, 2003
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          >Are you sure about all the features you've listed in the user
          >responsiblity area. The Public Domain program PCGEN is completely OGL
          >compliant, and it includes all features for class advancement,
          >including experience point needed and both class features, new feat,
          >and attribute improvements.

          Code Monkey, the developer association that produces PCGen, struck an
          agreement with WoTC that, I think, allows them to do this. WoTC was upset
          with them for awhile, owing to the fact that their software did, in fact,
          break this rule. (But really because it competed directly with
          MasterTools/E-Tools, and emerged the clear winner.) To be fair, E-Tools
          was hampered by changing direction (the dreaded spec-du-jour), but what
          finally emerged was buggy and contained far fewer features than originally
          advertised. Code Monkey is *also* working on E-Tools, to fix the bugs and
          add features, in return for which they'll get the rights to add WoTC
          material to PCGen as it is published. At least, that's my interpretation
          from reading various press releases over at Gaming World.

          My interpretation of what Bruce Kvam said here is that the feats will be
          coded (as far as what they give the character); what users will have to add
          is class specific details such as functions to determine when the character
          gains a new level, and how often the character gains feats. If that's
          wrong, someone please correct me.

          The OGL says that you can't create a d20 game that *doesn't* require the
          player's handbook. I think it spells out in more detail specifically what
          your game can't describe. Part of the problem with PCGen, pre agreement,
          was that the GPL and the OGL conflicted. Most community development
          efforts are covered by the GPL because a key feature is that it protects
          the work from commercial exploitation in various ways. This encourages
          people to volunteer their effort, since they've got some assurance that
          their work won't disappear into some company's private codebase.

          [Off-Topic follows]
          Apropos to the above, but not directly related to Metacreator, is this page
          about TCPA and Microsoft's Palladium initiative:

          http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

          It's a little technical, and partisan against TCPA, but well worth a read.
        • Bruce Kvam
          The pricing will be the same as all the products: $24.95 for the Metacreator/d20 bundle and $14.95 for the d20 template. ... From: Fesarius
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 11, 2003
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            The pricing will be the same as all the products: $24.95 for the
            Metacreator/d20 bundle and $14.95 for the d20 template.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Fesarius" <fesarius@...>
            To: <cw@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:36 PM
            Subject: RE: [cw] Announcement: d20 Template for Metacreator


            > Any guess what the price might be at this point?
          • Bruce Kvam
            You need the Core Rulebook to know what information to enter, but the data entry required is small, and you only need to do it when you install (actually, the
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 11, 2003
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              You need the Core Rulebook to know what information to enter, but the data
              entry required is small, and you only need to do it when you install
              (actually, the first time you need the information -- if you never need the
              information, you don't have to enter it).

              The standard d20 license agreement indicates that you can't include
              advancement and ability generation information, so we're abiding by the
              license agreement. The user supplies the information required to do the
              advancement, but then the result of that advancement proceeds normally,
              according to information provided in the SRD. Once you've done the setup,
              things will work as you expect.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Scott Stewart" <ss2art@...>
              To: <cw@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 12:13 AM
              Subject: RE: [cw] Announcement: d20 Template for Metacreator


              > This is great news. Maybe I can then customize it for my Star Wars
              > RPG.
              >
              > Are you sure about all the features you've listed in the user
              > responsiblity area. The Public Domain program PCGEN is completely OGL
              > compliant, and it includes all features for class advancement,
              > including experience point needed and both class features, new feat,
              > and attribute improvements.
              >
              > -------
              > Scott Stewart
              > ss2art@...
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Bruce Kvam [mailto:bkvam@...]
              > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 10:52 AM
              > > To: CW
              > > Subject: [cw] Announcement: d20 Template for Metacreator
              > >
              > >
              > > Alter Ego Software is working on a d20 template, to be
              > > released this summer.
              > >
              > > Supported features of the template include:
              > >
              > > * All the standard character classes and races
              > > * All spells, skills, feats, special abilities
              > > * Monster races
              > > * Template character races (vampires, liches, lycanthropes, etc.)
              > > * Support of all magic items
              > > * Creation of magic items by characters
              > > * Random treasure selection
              > > * Monster and encounter generation
              > > * Multipage character sheet printing
              > > * Combat summary sheets
              > > * Users can add new classes, skills, feats, special
              > > abilities, races,
              > > monsters, etc.
              > >
              > > Due to the requirements of the d20 licensing agreement,
              > > users will be
              > > responsible for providing information from the Core
              > > Rulebooks relating to
              > > character creation and advancement. This, however, provides
              > > additional
              > > flexibility by allowing for total customization of these
              > > aspects by users.
              > >
              > > You must provide your own experience table or function,
              > > ability score
              > > generation method, starting money, the frequency with which
              > > feats and
              > > ability score increases are allowed, etc. All you need to
              > > do this is the
              > > Player's Handbook.
              > >
              > > The template is based on the d20 System Reference Document
              > > (SRD), which does
              > > differ from the Core Rulebooks, specifically with the
              > > omission of some
              > > monsters and magic items. Also, some spells and items in
              > > the SRD have
              > > different names than their counterparts in the Core Rulebooks.
              > >
              > > Bruce Kvam
              > > Alter Ego Software, Inc.
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > ---------------------~-->
              > > Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here!
              > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/7tRolB/TM
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------
              > > ---------~->
              > >
              > > --------------
              > > Find out more about Creation Workshop by visiting the Hero
              > > Games Web Site at http://www.herogames.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------
              > Find out more about Creation Workshop by visiting the Hero Games Web Site
              at http://www.herogames.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Stephen R. Wilcoxon
              Disclosure: I am a LST Monkey for PCGen (haven t done much yet). ... Nope. PCGen 4.x is fully OGL compliant. Starting with 4.3.x, it follows the SRD. PCGen
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 11, 2003
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                Disclosure: I am a LST Monkey for PCGen (haven't done much yet).

                > >Are you sure about all the features you've listed in the user
                > >responsiblity area. The Public Domain program PCGEN is completely OGL
                > >compliant, and it includes all features for class advancement,
                > >including experience point needed and both class features, new feat,
                > >and attribute improvements.
                >
                > Code Monkey, the developer association that produces PCGen, struck an
                > agreement with WoTC that, I think, allows them to do this. WoTC was upset
                > with them for awhile, owing to the fact that their software did, in fact,
                > break this rule. (But really because it competed directly with
                > MasterTools/E-Tools, and emerged the clear winner.) To be fair, E-Tools
                > was hampered by changing direction (the dreaded spec-du-jour), but what
                > finally emerged was buggy and contained far fewer features than originally
                > advertised. Code Monkey is *also* working on E-Tools, to fix the bugs and
                > add features, in return for which they'll get the rights to add WoTC
                > material to PCGen as it is published. At least, that's my interpretation
                > from reading various press releases over at Gaming World.

                Nope. PCGen 4.x is fully OGL compliant. Starting with 4.3.x, it follows
                the SRD. PCGen 3.x was not fully OGL compliant and PCGen 2.x was not even
                close to OGL compliant and included lots of data that broke WotC licenses
                (eg it had alot of non-SRD data such as the class splat-books, etc).

                Code Monkey Publishing does have a special deal with WotC to make available
                non-SRD data for PCGen at the same time they make the same data available
                for E-Tools (and they are handling patching/development of E-Tools at this
                point).

                PCGen does include feat selection every 3 levels and stat increase every 4
                levels. It does NOT include initial stat generation or HP generation. I
                don't think it include the xp tables either (everything works on levels and
                you just enter the xp).
              • d20gm
                Ditto on what Stephen said, with some additions: The prob w/PCGen was originally the inclusion of non-OGL material. They now have an agreement which allows at
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 15, 2003
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                  Ditto on what Stephen said, with some additions:


                  The prob w/PCGen was originally the inclusion of non-OGL material.
                  They now have an agreement which allows at least a good deal of it in
                  future releases.


                  There is another program called Campainsuite, by Twin Rose software
                  which, as I understand it, has no *agreement* with WoC, but WoC has
                  judged them OGL-Compliant.


                  You see, boys & girls, there is a BIG difference between being
                  OGL-Compliant and compliant with the d20 System License. According to
                  the d20 System License you cannot put material in which allows for
                  character creation, but you get to refer to the product as a "d20"
                  product. In other words, compatiable with ANY d20 product(esp WoC). Of
                  course, you cannot declare compatiability with any specific d20 Prod
                  put out by a 3rd party publisher without an agreement with them, but
                  you can and must require the use of WoC's Core Books to play/use your
                  product.


                  What Campaignsuite did was what any other software should do: go OGL
                  compliant, not d20. This allows you to use your own character creation
                  system at will using the OGL, as long as you do not directly refer to
                  WoC or the d20 system (except for the copyrights page, of course).


                  Any serious player of a d20 game will understand the ramifications of
                  a claim that a product is "OGL Compliant" I can't imagine that your
                  target audience for an "OGL Template" for Metacreator would be
                  otherwise.


                  I am not sure that there is any way to make a character creation
                  software template without violating the d20 System License in some
                  way, unless your willing to pay out the YIn-Yang for special
                  permission from WoC.




                  I hope this helps.




                  By the way, I am not a lawyer & this is not to be construed as legal
                  advice. I am simply a player, GM, writer & Game Designer working with
                  the d20/OGL system. In short, this is just my opinion, for what it's
                  worth.




                  --- In cw@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Kvam" <bkvam@v...> wrote:


                  > Alter Ego Software is working on a d20 template, to be released this
                  summer.


                  >


                  > Supported features of the template include:


                  >


                  > * All the standard character classes and races


                  > * All spells, skills, feats, special abilities


                  > * Monster races


                  > * Template character races (vampires, liches, lycanthropes, etc.)


                  > * Support of all magic items


                  > * Creation of magic items by characters


                  > * Random treasure selection


                  > * Monster and encounter generation


                  > * Multipage character sheet printing


                  > * Combat summary sheets


                  > * Users can add new classes, skills, feats, special abilities,
                  races,


                  > monsters, etc.


                  >


                  > Due to the requirements of the d20 licensing agreement, users will
                  be


                  > responsible for providing information from the Core Rulebooks
                  relating to


                  > character creation and advancement. This, however, provides
                  additional


                  > flexibility by allowing for total customization of these aspects by
                  users.


                  >


                  > You must provide your own experience table or function, ability
                  score


                  > generation method, starting money, the frequency with which feats
                  and


                  > ability score increases are allowed, etc. All you need to do this is
                  the


                  > Player's Handbook.


                  >


                  > The template is based on the d20 System Reference Document (SRD),
                  which does


                  > differ from the Core Rulebooks, specifically with the omission of
                  some


                  > monsters and magic items. Also, some spells and items in the SRD
                  have


                  > different names than their counterparts in the Core Rulebooks.


                  >


                  > Bruce Kvam


                  > Alter Ego Software, Inc.
                • D. West Robbins
                  I just wanted to go on record as saying that I m excited about this. I d been trying for some time to make a Hero 5 template for CW 1.9.5 and failing
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 28, 2003
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                    I just wanted to go on record as saying that I'm excited about this.

                    I'd been trying for some time to make a Hero 5 template for CW 1.9.5
                    and failing miserably. I've finally broke down and shelled out the
                    $16 and 6-8 week waiting period to send Bruce a money order for MC,
                    so that I can partake of Chris Mullins' blood, sweat, and tears.
                    (I'll be buying Hero Designer, too, for double-checking tricky stuff
                    and all that and to support Hero Games, but since its Java [God bless
                    Dan Simon's efforts] I'll be using MC primarily.)

                    Now that I know a d20 template is coming out for MC as well, it makes
                    the decision to buy MC all the more judicious in retrospect. One of
                    the things that irks me more than anything about PC Gen is that it's
                    Java. I hate Java; it feels "clunky" and it's not very resource-
                    efficient IMHO. Nothing personal against non-Windows users, but... I
                    prefer my software OS-specific!

                    I'm really looking forward to this. Yes, I'll have to input my own
                    custom classes (which I'm particularly fond of using... my current
                    characters include a Soulsinger [divine "bard" base class] and a Mage
                    Smith [from AEG's Magic]). But considering that most software out
                    there either cannot be easily customized (ie E-Tools and Heroforge
                    3.0), is way too clunky too use IMHO (ie PC-Gen), or is commercial
                    and I don't want to spend the money (ie RPM, CampaignSuite, et al), I
                    think I can definately live with having to enter in my own custom
                    data. :)

                    Trust me, I'd rather spend $15 for a d20 MC template than $25 for a
                    piece of software that only covers one game.

                    =====O
                    Dale W. Robbins




                    --- "Bruce Kvam" <bkvam@v...> wrote:
                    > Alter Ego Software is working on a d20 template, to be released
                    > this summer.
                    >
                    > ...
                    > <SNIP>
                    > ...
                    >
                    > The template is based on the d20 System Reference Document (SRD),
                    > which does differ from the Core Rulebooks, specifically with the
                    > omission of some monsters and magic items. Also, some spells and
                    > items in the SRD have different names than their counterparts in
                    > the Core Rulebooks.
                    >
                    > Bruce Kvam
                    > Alter Ego Software, Inc.
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