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Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mathematician

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  • Frank McCoy
    ... From: Jan Sammer To: Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mathematician
    Message 1 of 39 , Apr 2 8:18 PM
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jan Sammer" <sammer@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 7:24 AM
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mathematician


      > From: "Frank McCoy" <silvanus55109@...>
      >
      > > The unleavened shew bread is, I suggest, alluded
      to in
      > > the numbers twelve and seven that the disciples
      shout
      > > out: for the shew bread consisted of twelve loaves
      and
      > > was replaced each seven days. It symbolizes true
      > > doctrine, i.e., the Gospel.
      > >
      > > The leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod
      symbolizes
      > > false doctrine. Adding this to the unleavened
      shew
      > > bread, i.e., the Gospel, then, is adding false
      > > doctrine to a body of true doctrine.
      >

      (Jan)
      > Thus the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod is
      threatening to corrupt the
      > true doctrine. I can see your point with reference
      to the warning about
      the
      > yeast, but in trying to apply this interpretation to
      the numbers you run
      > into the problems I pointed out originally: that
      there are five, not
      twelve
      > loaves supplied to the disciples at the first
      occasion and that the seven
      > loaves supplied on the second occasion cannot easily
      stand for seven days.
      > What you actually have is 12 kophinoi of leftover
      pieces standing for 12
      > unleavened loaves and 7 spyrides of leftover pieces
      standing for 7 days.
      > Allegories usually are more consistent than this.
      >
      Dear Jan:

      In the manner I have been interpreting the Markan
      narratives of the two feedings and the incident in the
      boat, I take it that there are symbolic elements to
      these narratives. This does not, though, make the
      Markan narratives allegories nor do I treat them as
      being allegories.

      Yes, it is a weakness to my interpretation of the
      Markan narrative of the incident in the boat that,
      according to it, the twelve refers to loaves and the
      seven to days. There is no contradiction here, but
      the inconsistency is troubling to myself as well.

      On a deeper level of disquitude with the
      interpretation I've been giving, I'm beginning to
      wonder if Mark's numerology of a right triangle in his
      narrative of the first feeding and his numerology of
      a right angle of a right triangle in his narrative of
      the second feeding might not allude to the
      Therapeutes' Sacred Banquet--the climax of which was
      the distribution of bread to the participants. If so,
      then Mark might be hinting that there is a linkage
      between the two feedings and the Therapeutes' Sacred
      Banquet.

      The reason why this thought arises in my mind is that
      Philo's description of the spiritual right triangle
      through which the Cosmos sprang into being, which I
      cited in an earlier post on this thread, occurs in his
      essay on the Therapeutae and it occurs shortly before
      he describes their Sacred Banquet.

      Possibly, then, this spiritual right triangle is a
      Therapeutic notion adopted by Philo and the
      Therapeutae made some sort of connection between
      this spiritual right triangle and the bread they ate
      during their Sacred Banquet. I'm starting an
      investigation into this.

      (Frank)
      > > The reason for making the allusions to the right
      > > triangle of a right triangle in the second feeding
      > > narrative is the same, i.e., to indicate that
      > > Jesus is the Logos: the spiritual right triangle.
      > >
      >
      (Jan)
      > Let's see, we have 3 days of going hungry, 7 loaves
      broken, 7 spyrides of
      > fragments collected, a crowd of 4000 being fed. To
      extrapolate a 3-4-5
      right
      > triangle from this takes more imagination than I am
      capable of.

      Jan:
      Ouch! The sentence above should read, "The reason for
      making the allusions to the right *angle* of a right
      triangle is the second feeding...". I apologize for
      failing to catch this error before sending off the
      post.

      Regards,

      Frank McCoy
      1809 N. English Apt. 17
      Maplewood, MN USA 55109
    • Jan Sammer
      From: ... ideas of ... Homer ... the ... Of course the imagery of a ruler as shepherd is one that could occur independently in any
      Message 39 of 39 , Apr 10 7:57 AM
        From: <LeeEdgarTyler@...>


        TonyBuglass@... writes:

        >
        >> Jan - why is it so unlikely? Both ancient Greece and ancient Israel were
        > >agricultural societies; both had sheep; both had shepherds who care for
        > >their sheep. Is it impossible that both independently developed similar
        ideas of
        > pastoral care by the appropriate divinity from such an obvious everyday
        > >picture?
        >
        > >The problem with sophistication - sometimes it obscures the simple and
        > >obvious! Or does that mean I'm being unsophisticated and thick, like the
        > >disciples Mark portrays...? <G>
        >
        >> Cheers,
        >> Rev Tony Buglass
        > >Pickering Methodist Circuit
        >
        >

        >I meant to post this earlier, but it got lost in the midterm shuffle:
        Homer
        >frequently calls Agamemnon the "shepherd" (poimĂȘn) of the Greeks, and
        >Sophocles uses the term "shepherd of the people" for several different
        >leaders. Pindar and Aeschylus use it to denote a master. And of course
        the
        >term Jerome employs to translate poimĂȘn is "pastor."

        >So there's no doubt that the Greeks had, independently of the Hebrews,
        >developed this metaphorical use of the term "shepherd." I have found no
        >cases in which it is applied to a deity, however; although one of Pindar's
        >odes has a preternatural connotation to it in its use of "shepherds of the
        >Loves" for the sprites attending Aphrodite.

        >best,

        >Ed Tyler

        Of course the imagery of a ruler as shepherd is one that could occur
        independently in any pastoral society. That is the imagery used by Homer and
        other poets; it is also imagery alluded to in Plato's dialogue, The
        Statesman; but there the imagery is developed in a peculiar way that goes
        way beyond a simple allegory of the ruler as the shepherd of his people.
        Plato indeed argues that the statesman should be the shepherd of his people,
        but to justify this proposition he refers back to a myth, narrated by the
        Eleatic Stranger, in which the rulers of the present age are but imperfect
        stand-ins for the true shepherd who had the human flock in his charge in a
        former age. In the present age the divine shepherd's role is emulated,
        albeit imperfectly, by human rulers. In a future age the divine shepherd
        will return to resume control over the human flock. It is this apocalyptic
        myth that I had in mind when I referred to the uncanny correspondence
        between the myth of the Statesman and Hebrew traditions and expectations.

        In the Hebrew tradition as it developed particularly in post-Exilic times,
        there was an age in which man, created out of the earth, lived in a garden,
        needing no clothes, feeding on the fruit that its trees produced by
        themselves. Only after being expelled from the garden did man start having
        to till the soil and produce his own sustenance. He also became mortal,
        began to marry and beget children.

        There was also an age to come, (according to the Markan Jesus) in which a
        men and women will not marry but will live like angels. They will be
        nurtured directly by their divine shepherd. This expectation goes back to
        Isaiah and Ezekiel ("I will set up one Shepherd over them, and He shall feed
        them").

        In the Statesman the Stranger from Elea describes the once and future age of
        divine control as follows: "Over every herd of living creatures throughout
        all their tribes was set a heavenly daemon to be its shepherd. Each of them
        was all in all ot his flock--providing for the needs of all his charges....
        a god was their shepherd and had charge of them and fed them.. When God was
        shepherd there were no political constitutions and no taking of wives and
        begetting of children. For all men rose up anew into life our of the
        earth...they had fruits without stint from trees and bushes; these needed no
        cultivation but sprang up of themselves out of the ground without man's
        toil. For the most part they disported themsleves in the open needing
        neither clothing nor couch, for the seasons were blended evenly so as to
        work them no hurt, and the grass which sprang out of the earth in abundance
        made a soft bed for them."

        In between the former and future age of divine control is the present age in
        which the divinity has left the world to its own devices. But there will
        come a day when the divine shepherd will once more take charge of his flock.

        The feedings of the multitudes are premonitions of this future age. Mark
        indicates this in 6:34: "... he saw this large crowd and his heart was
        filled with pity for them, because they looked like sheep without a
        shepherd." Jesus then proceeds to feed them, proving himself to be their
        shepherd, the sustainer of humanity in the age to come. It is this that the
        disciples are taken to task for failing to understand, though Peter's
        testimony on the road to Caesarea Philippi shows that he has figured it out.
        The ability of Jesus to feed the multitudes is the key to his true identity
        as the divine shepherd of the age to come.

        This idea is almost identical with the idea of the Statesman. It is the
        image of the shepherd as the divine sustainer of humanity in the age to come
        that is so distinctive of the Hebrew tradition and of the Statesman, and
        which raises questions as to whether such concepts could have arisen
        independently of one another. I am currently looking at the possibility that
        both concepts go back to Zoroastrian ideas.

        Regards,

        Jan

        Jan Sammer
        sammer@...
        Prague, Czech Republic
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