Re: [XTalk] Apologetics
- Thanks Gordon,
Hmm. I think our historical method varies considerably. I mentioned in a
post to Antonio that the assessing of sources as a first step necessarily
includes an ³in the back pocket² picture of what Jesus said and did (Q1
seems to me to be a perfect case in point, we already know the Jesus we are
looking for, so why bother?). I¹m a Collingwoodian at this point. But for
those who believe in such things as Q1 etc ( I¹m a Q-document skeptic,
perhaps we could trade some of our scepticism!), there are clear indications
in Q that Jesus worked mighty deeds (but of course since we know he didn¹t
we can edit out Q2..., :)). I really have no time for Q1 (a hypothetical
layer in a hypothetical document which presumes already a largely literary
approach to gospel materials); oh that we would be as rigorous with such
hypotheses as some are with the actual documents we have. But, since Q1 may
well have been seen as a collection of Jesus¹ sayings, it is hardly
surprising that it doesn¹t include deeds. And a common sayings source is,
by definition, concerned with sayings. No surprise there either. Paul in
any case says precious little about Jesus, so his silence on deeds is no
surprise (though I think Brian has been making some interesting points
here). But in any case, the fact remains (pardon me from being boorish
enough to put it out: fact as opposed to hypotheses) that the four bioi of
Jesus that we actually have from the same century and beginning within
thirty years of his death, all emphasize that Jesus performed mighty deeds.
That means, to me, that there is a significant body of oral tradition lying
behind them which can only go back earlier stillto within what? Ten,
fifteen years? If so then one is going to have to argue that a massive
reinvention of Jesus occurred within a decade or two and miraculously
without a single indication anywhere of any opposition at all to this
substantial reshaping. A truly remarkable and indeed unique unanimity
descends on the church (but only on this issue, mind. People are happy to
argue about Christology but apparently no dissent anywhere on the adding of
a huge range of mighty deeds). Well, given how you read silences I should
imagine that this means you would agree that there really must have been
none at all. Not a bad conspiracy, even in modern terms. In fact a fairly
impressive mighty deed in its own right, I should think.
Thanks for patience Gordon. I know this was a bit cheeky, but you¹re a good
bloke and I¹m sure can enjoy the fun.
Every best wish, and have a great holiday.
on 22/2/02 5:15 AM, Gordon Raynal at scudi1@... wrote:
> Rikk,Rikk Watts Ph. (604) 224 3245
> We can chat some more about this... but just for a thought.
> Common Sayings Tradition, Q1, the Parallel opening of the Didache, and
> Paul... 1st layer stuff... NO mention of Jesus as a wonder worker... so
> we'll work from there. That's my first most important data base.
> Second... read Hal Taussig's little intro in his short book about Jesus'
> prayer. In that little summary is a nice cogent and tight little
> description about sages and their modus operandi. That will provide for you
> a POSITIVE description of what and how... as regard HJ and friends actions
> in the late 20's.
> So... to get this a step forward... let me leave you with that. I'll be
> glad to provide for you my read on the creativity "taking off" and the
> probable sources for it doing so and a stab at "the why's".
> Now... time for last packing
>> From: "Rikki E. Watts" <rwatts@...>
>> To: firstname.lastname@example.org
>> Subject: Re: [XTalk] Apologetics
>> Date: 22, Feb 2002, 1:03 AM
>> Thanks Gordon for a good natured response ;). It¹s raining cats and dogs in
>> Vancouver, so I¹m a little envious of your beaching.
>> Looks like we are back on the old Xlist treadmill: what is viable historical
>> evidence which I fear will never be resolved. Personally, I think your
>> requirements are unrealistic, BUT of course you, in all good conscience, do
>> I gladly apologize re the faith healers! It was not intended to be slick¹
>> I just thought that¹s where you were coming from. I am delighted to hear
>> that you do accept the possibility of such.
>> Best wishes
>> on 21/2/02 9:19 PM, Gordon Raynal at scudi1@... wrote:
>> Rikk Watts Ph. (604) 224 3245
>> Regent College Fax. (604) 224 3097
>> 5800 University Boulevard, Vancouver, V6T 2E4.
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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