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Re: [XTalk] Oops! (was: GJohn)

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  • Mahlon H. Smith
    Permit a minor correction to the URL I gave in my previous post. For any who are interested, the full text of Walter Bauer s *Orthodoxy & Heresy in Earliest
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 18, 2002
      Permit a minor correction to the URL I gave in my previous post. For any who
      are interested, the full text of Walter Bauer's *Orthodoxy & Heresy in
      Earliest Christianity* is accessible only from the index at URL


      Alan Humm turned Bob Kraft's old gopher files into HTML but did not add any
      hyperlinks to navigate from page to page. So after completing each chapter
      one has to hit the back button to return to the index.



      Mahlon H. Smith
      Department of Religion
      Rutgers University
      New Brunswick NJ 08901


      Synoptic Gospels Primer

      Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 1:02 AM
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] GJohn

      > At 05:21 AM 2/17/2002 +0000, bjtraff responded to Mahlon, near the end of
      > long message:
      > > > Would most
      > > > critically trained researchers today regard the Johannine dialogs
      > > > as having a greater historical value for reconstructing an accurate
      > > > image of HJ than the versions of the aphorisms & parables in GThom
      > > > that have parallels in the synoptic gospels?
      > >
      > >This is a red herring, as few scholars would argue for the
      > >historicity of much of anything said or done by Jesus in GJohn. ...
      > Well, I am tempted to reject BOTH statements, but we have to read
      > here.
      > Mahlon writes about the Johannine *dialogues* -- i.e., not the whole of
      > GJohn but, I take it, the passages sometimes referred to as pastoral
      > discourses. I think Brian over-reacted and rejected for purposes of
      > historical analysis more of GJohn than Mahlon did.
      > The historical value of GJohn has been carefully studied by Raymond Brown
      > (e.g., in the AB The Gospel According to John, I - XII [1996], pp. xlii,
      > xlvii-li, with references) and many others, and more recently (1992)
      > Kysar, writing in the Anchor Bible Dictionary. Kysar concludes that the
      > value of GJohn for historical Jesus studies "is in general no different
      > than the other gospels." For example, Some of the earlier analyses
      > supported by Brown show that GJohn in some places shows a *better*
      > knowledge of pre-70 C.E. Palestine than the Synoptic gospels. And since
      > these analyses show that GJohn is a better witness in some matters
      > where the data is best, then it might also be a better witness in some
      > matters where comparable data in other sources is not available. Kysar
      > argues that the discourses (Mahlon's dialogues?) might be in the form of a
      > midrash on historical statements by Jesus, so that even the dialogues
      > contain traces of historical sayings.
      > So, in summary, Brian, I think you have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
      > Bob
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