Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Depopulation of Galilee

Expand Messages
  • brmcc2000
    Would the Galileans of Jesus time have called themselves Jews? How would they have named themselves religiously (if that is not too anachronistically
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 26, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Would the Galileans of Jesus' time have called themselves Jews?

      How would they have named themselves religiously (if that is not too
      anachronistically formulated question)?

      Brian McCarthy
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Brian, I think some of them would have called them selves IOUDAOI (same word for both Judea and Jew)-- These would primarily have been the local non-Roman
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 27, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        At 05:51 AM 1/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:
        >Would the Galileans of Jesus' time have called themselves Jews?

        Brian,
        I think some of them would have called them selves IOUDAOI (same word for
        both Judea and Jew)--
        These would primarily have been the local non-Roman aristocracy of Galilee
        (mostly Hasmoneans).

        Some of them would have called themselves Israelites, as suggested by John
        1:47:
        Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite
        indeed, in whom is no guile!"
        For a similar use, of Israel as a religious designation, see 1 Maccabees
        5:9, 45; 6:21 and 4 Maccabees 18:1,5

        Some might have called themselves "Hebrews" (Hebraios), e.g., Acts 6:1; In
        addition, Paul did:
        RSV 2 Corinthians 11:22
        Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they
        descendants of Abraham? So am I.
        (see also Philippians 3:5)-- although perhaps this was a preferred
        designation for Jews in the diaspora? My Bibleworks dictionary
        sez: Hebraios {heb-rah'-yos} • from 1443; TDNT - 3:356,372; n m • AV -
        Hebrew 5; 5 • 1) Hebrew 1a) any one of the Jewish or Israelitish nations
        2) in a narrower sense, those who live in Palestine and use the language
        of the country 3) all Jewish Christians, whether they spoke Aramaic
        or Greek



        >How would they have named themselves religiously (if that is not too
        >anachronistically formulated question)?
        >
        >Brian McCarthy

        Perhaps by Josephus' categories of Pharisee, Sadducee, or Essene?

        Bob


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gordon Raynal
        Bob, Thanks for this. Since I don t have a Bible Works dictionary, what does it say about the use of the term the Way that is used to describe the movement
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 28, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Bob,

          Thanks for this. Since I don't have a Bible Works dictionary, what does it
          say about the use of the term "the Way" that is used to describe the
          movement centered around Jesus. Is there any earlier use of this term?

          Thanks for checking.

          Gordon Raynal
          Inman, SC
        • Bob Schacht
          ... Gordon, The Way, according to my BW dictionary, is hodos {hod-os } • apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f • AV - way 83, way side 8, journey
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 28, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            At 05:44 PM 1/28/2002 -0500, Gordon Raynal wrote:
            >Bob,
            >
            >Thanks for this. Since I don't have a Bible Works dictionary, what does it
            >say about the use of the term "the Way" that is used to describe the
            >movement centered around Jesus. Is there any earlier use of this term?
            >
            >Thanks for checking.

            Gordon,

            The Way, according to my BW dictionary, is hodos {hod-os'} • apparently a
            root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f • AV - way 83, way side 8, journey 6,
            highway 3, misc 2; 102 • 1) properly 1a) a way 1a1) a travelled way, road
            1b) a travellers way, journey, travelling 2) metaph. 2a) a course of
            conduct 2b) a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding

            In other words, a plain word that was used metaphorically. Of course, you
            are probably thinking about its use as a label for the early followers of
            Jesus, highlighted in the RSV by spelling it with a capitol W: The Way, as in
            Acts 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that
            if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them
            bound to Jerusalem.

            Acts 16:17 She followed Paul and us, crying, "These men are servants of the
            Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation."

            Acts 18:25-6 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being
            fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning
            Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in
            the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and
            expounded to him the way of God more accurately.

            Acts 19:9 but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the
            Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples
            with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyrannus.

            Acts 19:23 About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way.

            Acts 22:4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to
            prison both men and women,

            Acts 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they
            call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid
            down by the law or written in the prophets,

            Acts 24:22 But Felix, having a rather accurate knowledge of the Way, put
            them off, saying, "When Lysias the tribune comes down, I will decide your
            case."

            Its all the same word, HODOS, with no special markings in the text such as
            the capitalization used by the RSV. I don't find this usage in Paul's
            letters, but it's metaphorical usage is suggested already in Mark, who
            wrote of the way of the Lord/God:

            Mark 1:2-3 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send my
            messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way; the voice of one
            crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths
            straight -- "

            and parallels in Matthew 3:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23, and again in Mark
            12:14:
            And they came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are true, and
            care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men, but truly teach
            the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"
            and parallels in Matthew 22:16 and Luke 20:21

            Matthew added some related metaphorical usages:
            Matthew 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to
            life, and those who find it are few.

            Matthew 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did
            not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and
            even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.

            But John made it all quite explicit:
            John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no
            one comes to the Father, but by me.

            But as a label for followers of Jesus, I only find it in Acts.

            Bob


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Way ... it ... a
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 28, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 9:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Way


              > At 05:44 PM 1/28/2002 -0500, Gordon Raynal wrote:
              > >Bob,
              > >
              > >Thanks for this. Since I don't have a Bible Works dictionary, what does
              it
              > >say about the use of the term "the Way" that is used to describe the
              > >movement centered around Jesus. Is there any earlier use of this term?
              > >
              > >Thanks for checking.
              >
              > Gordon,
              >
              > The Way, according to my BW dictionary, is hodos {hod-os'} . apparently
              a
              > root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f . AV - way 83, way side 8, journey 6,
              > highway 3, misc 2; 102 . 1) properly 1a) a way 1a1) a travelled way, road
              > 1b) a travellers way, journey, travelling 2) metaph. 2a) a course of
              > conduct 2b) a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding

              > Acts 19:23 About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way.

              <snip>

              > Its all the same word, HODOS, with no special markings in the text such as
              > the capitalization used by the RSV. I don't find this usage in Paul's
              > letters, but it's metaphorical usage is suggested already in Mark, who
              > wrote of the way of the Lord/God:

              "The Way" in the Nazarenes own Aramaic would have been ha awORKHeh.
              Like Mark, Acts 19:23 in the Old Syriac is also awORKHeh d'alaHA
              "The Way of God."

              Just thought I would throw that in.

              Jack
            • Gordon Raynal
              Bob and Jack, Thanks for your responses. I only know of the use as a title in Acts as well, but find the citation that the followers only became called
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 28, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Bob and Jack,

                Thanks for your responses. I only know of the use as a title in Acts as
                well, but find the citation that the followers only became called
                "Christian" in Antioch some ten to twelve years after Jesus' death most
                interesting. The word certainly "fits" in light of the 2 by 2 mission
                strategy and the term apostoloi. I wonder if this is historical reference
                or simply part of Acts word play. Thoughts, anyone?

                Gordon Raynal
              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: Gordon Raynal To: Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Way ... I
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 28, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...>
                  To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:13 PM
                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Way


                  > Bob and Jack,
                  >
                  > Thanks for your responses. I only know of the use as a title in Acts as
                  > well, but find the citation that the followers only became called
                  > "Christian" in Antioch some ten to twelve years after Jesus' death most
                  > interesting. The word certainly "fits" in light of the 2 by 2 mission
                  > strategy and the term apostoloi. I wonder if this is historical reference
                  > or simply part of Acts word play. Thoughts, anyone?

                  I believe XRISTIANOUS appeared somewhere around 60ish CE
                  but I doubt the Jewish Jerusalem group and original Talmuddaya
                  were designated as such. awORKHeh d'alaHA (The Way of God)
                  and qeHAli d'alaHA (Assembly of God) may be related. We also
                  hear..er..read of N'tzarim ("Branchers") and Yishiim...or as Epiphanius
                  translates it in Panarion 29 IESSAIOI ("Jesseans") are probably
                  both derived from Isaiah 11:1.

                  Jack
                • anton30mula
                  Could it be a translation of Heb. halakah from root halak = to go, which was used more for practice, rule in the Judaic tradition? The Messianic Jews
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 29, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Could it be a translation of Heb. 'halakah' from root 'halak' = to
                    go, which was used more for 'practice, rule' in the Judaic
                    tradition? The Messianic Jews perhaps started to call their new
                    'rule' the new 'halakah' which in Greek then was translated
                    'hodos'.

                    Anton Mula

                    --- In crosstalk2@y..., "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@c...> wrote:
                    > Bob and Jack,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your responses. I only know of the use as a title in
                    Acts as
                    > well, but find the citation that the followers only became called
                    > "Christian" in Antioch some ten to twelve years after Jesus'
                    death most
                    > interesting. The word certainly "fits" in light of the 2 by 2
                    mission
                    > strategy and the term apostoloi. I wonder if this is historical
                    reference
                    > or simply part of Acts word play. Thoughts, anyone?
                    >
                    > Gordon Raynal
                  • Gordon Raynal
                    ... Jack and Anton, Thanks for your reflections. Just interested... Jack, where you get the 60ish dating from? Do you think this does have something to do
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 29, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >I believe XRISTIANOUS appeared somewhere around 60ish CE
                      >but I doubt the Jewish Jerusalem group and original Talmuddaya
                      >were designated as such. awORKHeh d'alaHA (The Way of God)
                      >and qeHAli d'alaHA (Assembly of God) may be related. We also
                      >hear..er..read of N'tzarim ("Branchers") and Yishiim...or as Epiphanius
                      >translates it in Panarion 29 IESSAIOI ("Jesseans") are probably
                      >both derived from Isaiah 11:1.
                      Jack and Anton,

                      Thanks for your reflections. Just interested... Jack, where you get the
                      "60ish" dating from? Do you think this does have something to do with the
                      way Acts frames this name getting? (as in in Antioch among this mixed crowd
                      there?)

                      Gordon Raynal
                      Inman, SC
                    • Karel Hanhart
                      Gordon, Sorry, to intervene. But isn t this a basic term in the Hebrew Bible? The people of Israel are admonished to walk after JHWH your God (Dt 13,4 KJ) or
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 29, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Gordon,

                        Sorry, to intervene. But isn't this a basic term in the Hebrew Bible? The people
                        of Israel are admonished to "walk after JHWH your God" (Dt 13,4 KJ) or "to follow
                        JHWH" (NRS); contrast "to walk after other [or foreign] gods" (Dt 8,19; cmp Lv
                        18,3). Related is the Hb term 'derekh', way, Gr 'hodos'. Hence the term halakha.
                        It is an important ethical terminology in the Gospels and Acts: 'Prepare the Way
                        of JHWH' (Mc 1,3).


                        Gordon Raynal wrote:

                        > Bob,
                        >
                        > Thanks for this. Since I don't have a Bible Works dictionary, what does it
                        > say about the use of the term "the Way" that is used to describe the
                        > movement centered around Jesus. Is there any earlier use of this term?
                        >
                        > Thanks for checking.
                        >
                        > Gordon Raynal
                        > Inman, SC
                        >
                        >
                        > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                        >
                        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Gordon Raynal To: Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Way ... crowd
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 30, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...>
                          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:03 AM
                          Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Way


                          >
                          > >I believe XRISTIANOUS appeared somewhere around 60ish CE
                          > >but I doubt the Jewish Jerusalem group and original Talmuddaya
                          > >were designated as such. awORKHeh d'alaHA (The Way of God)
                          > >and qeHAli d'alaHA (Assembly of God) may be related. We also
                          > >hear..er..read of N'tzarim ("Branchers") and Yishiim...or as Epiphanius
                          > >translates it in Panarion 29 IESSAIOI ("Jesseans") are probably
                          > >both derived from Isaiah 11:1.
                          > Jack and Anton,
                          >
                          > Thanks for your reflections. Just interested... Jack, where you get the
                          > "60ish" dating from? Do you think this does have something to do with the
                          > way Acts frames this name getting? (as in in Antioch among this mixed
                          crowd
                          > there?)

                          Check out H. B. Mattingly, Journal of Theological Studies 9 (1958) 26-37.
                          It is also in Acts 24 when the first use of NAZWRAIWN is used by Tertullus
                          and I suspect the term XRISTIANOUS has not yet come into usage.

                          Jack
                        • Gordon Raynal
                          Jack and Karel, Thanks for your respective posts... Jack, for the reference, and Karel, see ... Thanks for these thoughts, as well. What Brian McCarthy s post
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 30, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jack and Karel,

                            Thanks for your respective posts... Jack, for the reference, and Karel, see
                            below:

                            >Sorry, to intervene. But isn't this a basic term in the Hebrew Bible? The people
                            >of Israel are admonished to "walk after JHWH your God" (Dt 13,4 KJ) or "to follow
                            >JHWH" (NRS); contrast "to walk after other [or foreign] gods" (Dt 8,19; cmp Lv
                            >18,3). Related is the Hb term 'derekh', way, Gr 'hodos'. Hence the term halakha.
                            >It is an important ethical terminology in the Gospels and Acts: 'Prepare the Way
                            >of JHWH' (Mc 1,3).

                            Thanks for these thoughts, as well. What Brian McCarthy's post raised about
                            self-identifying group names as regards what Galileans usually called
                            themselves religiously prompted me to add on to that wondering in relation
                            to those first followers from Galilee after Jesus' death. It is in the
                            story telling of Acts that we are explicitly told of the name "Christians"
                            coming into use up in Antioch at least a decade + after Jesus. Jack's
                            position pushed the date to the 60's. All are most likely aware of the
                            phrase that some have touted that it was "Paul who was the founder of
                            Christianity." This discussion interests me because... negatively: in much
                            writing there is a very loose use of titling terms as summaries... as
                            "Jewish beliefs" or "early Christian beliefs"... when it is not exactly
                            clear just who is included in such usage and what is assumed to be common to
                            all. And positively: it is fascinating our actual lack of data on the issue
                            of group naming/ titling.

                            Anyway... perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. Yes, I was aware
                            of those usages of the phrase, what I was wondering about is, is anyone
                            aware of any usages outside of Acts of that phrase in group titling... as
                            Acts does with references like "members of the way?"

                            Gordon Raynal
                            Inman, SC
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.