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Re: [XTalk] Historical vs. Legendary Characters (was Dating of GMark)

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Thanks; I stand (or sit) corrected! :-) ... The Pantera tradition in the Mishnah does not explicitly mention Jesus, but for at least a century the
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 3, 2001
      At 08:21 PM 12/3/01 +0000, you wrote:
      >On 3 Dec 2001 at 12:05, Bob Schacht wrote:
      >
      >...
      > > 3. If I
      > > remember correctly, Pantera in the Pantera tradition is not
      > > *explicitly* identified as the father of Jesus, and requires several
      > > assumptions to make the connection. But perhaps I am remembering the
      > > Mishnaic versions and not Contra Celsus
      >
      >It's explicit in Contra Celsum. I copy this from the on-line CCEL
      >Ante-Nicene fathers collection:... (Contra Celsum I.32).

      Thanks; I stand (or sit) corrected! :-)


      >You don't mean "Mishnaic versions" either -- the Mishnah has no
      >reference at all to Jesus. ...

      The Pantera tradition in the Mishnah does not explicitly mention Jesus, but
      for at least a century the connection has been made with such passages as
      b. Shabbath 104b (cf. b. Sanhedrin 67a), and analyzed by Travers Hereford
      in Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (1903), pp. 35-41. Contra Celsus is a
      better source.

      Bob


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Schacht
      ... In my remarks to Mark Goodacre, I wrote [with slight emendations] ... My third point is removed by Mark Goodacre s quote from Contra Celsus ... Please keep
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 3, 2001
        At 04:11 PM 12/3/01 -0500, Mahlon wrote:
        >...At risk of prolonging this thread ad nauseum, however, I am curious as
        >to why you both seem to think that there is a "stronger correlation"
        >between the Avigad ossuaries & Mark 15:21 than the Bingerbruck tombstone &
        >Celsus' report of the Pantera rumor. Is it dating? Or geography? Or the
        >patronym? Or what? Anyone care to elucidate?

        In my remarks to Mark Goodacre, I wrote [with slight emendations]
        >I argue that the evidence is stronger for Alexander b. Shim'on than for
        >Pantera based on these data:
        >1. Mark is 100 years earlier than the Pantera tradition. 35 years after the
        >events depicted is better than 135 years later.
        >2. Alexander b. Shim'on is identified by the confluence of two names, not
        >just one as with Pantera.

        My third point is removed by Mark Goodacre's quote from Contra Celsus

        >4. The location of the Jewish ossuary is located much closer to the events
        >described than the connection of Pantera with Sidon on a grave in
        >[Bingerbruck].
        >5. The Pantera tradition is clearly polemical rather than historical in
        >nature. On the other hand, the mention of Alexander b. Shim'on by Mark
        >plays only a minor role in the story, which indicates to me that the
        >motivation for inventing the Pantera tradition is stronger than the
        >motivation for inventing a tradition about Alexander b. Shim'on.

        Please keep in mind, Mahlon, that I am not saying that these things prove
        that Alexander b. Shim'on in Mark is historical, as I have stated for about
        the third time now. My reaction to your post was motivated mainly by your
        claim that the evidence is *no better than* that for the Pantera tradition,
        and that was what I was objecting to.

        Bob


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mahlon H. Smith
        Apologies to Bob Schacht. I responded to Mark G s post before reading yours in which you spelled out your reasons for considering the two references to
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 3, 2001
          Apologies to Bob Schacht. I responded to Mark G's post before reading yours
          in which you spelled out your reasons for considering the two references to
          Alexander to be a "stronger" correlation, thereby anticipating my request
          for clarification. If you'll pardon a nit-picker's comments, here's an
          off-the-top of my head dissection of your carefully compiled case favoring
          the canonical report.

          You wrote:

          > I argue that the evidence is stronger for Alexander b. Shim'on than for
          > Pantera based on these data:
          > 1. Mark is 100 years earlier than the Pantera tradition. 35 years after
          the
          > events depicted is better than 135 years later.

          That assumes of course that the Pantera tradition originated with Celsus.
          But Origen at least did not think that he invented this rumor. How can one
          be sure exactly when & where rumors about HJ's illegitimate paternity
          originated? One can hardly expect earlier Xn writers to have reported this.
          The only reason Origen reports it is that he committed himself to a
          refutation of a text written by Celsus. We simply do not have any other
          Jewish or anti-Xn literature that pretends to be well-informed about Jesus
          earlier than Celsus. Had any such document been written Orthodox
          ecclesiastical censors in the Constantinian era would certainly have
          suppressed it as they did Celsus' volume.

          Conversely, Mark's relatively closer historical proximity to the "event" he
          reports only makes his witness stronger *if* one assumes that that event
          actually happened & was not just a Markan fiction (as Ted Weeden supposes)
          or an unfounded rumor that he uncritically echoed. But the strength of
          Mark's testimony in this matter is no stronger than his testimony in
          reporting other "events" -- such as the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus -- to which
          he was not an eye-witness. And few contemporary critics would consider
          Markan testimony in such matters much closer than 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay.
          Given the speed with which unfounded rumors develop, I wouldn't be inclined
          to conclude that a gap of 35 years made Mark's report any stronger than that
          of Celsus.

          > 2. Alexander b. Shim'on is identified by the confluence of two names, not
          > just one as with Pantera.

          But as I have already argued Alexander & Shim'on were both common Jewish
          names. So the number of Jews who may have been known as Alexander b. Shim'on
          cannot be restricted to a single individual. Pantera, on the other hand, is
          a rare name not attested anywhere in ancient literature outside the rumor of
          Jesus' paternity. That is why the discovery of the Bingerbruck tombstone in
          1859 caused such a stir. The fact that it was a 1st c. artifact that
          identified Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera as an archer from Sidon who had
          served 40 years in a Roman legion provided details has led a long line of
          scholars over the past 140 years to entertain the notion that the rumor
          about Jesus' illegitimate paternity *may* not have been a complete
          fabrication after all [see *Jesus & His World* by J.J. Rousseau & Rami Arav,
          pp. 223f]. Since neither Mark nor the Jerusalem ossuary gives any
          information about Alexander than his common Jewish patronym & his region of
          origin, it is debatable whether the correlation between these references is
          any "stronger" than the instances of reference to a Roman soldier with the
          uncommon name of Pantera.

          > 3. If I remember correctly, Pantera in the Pantera tradition is not
          > *explicitly* identified as the father of Jesus, and requires several
          > assumptions to make the connection. But perhaps I am remembering the
          > Mishnaic versions and not Contra Celsus.

          As I recall Celsus did not name of the Roman soldier who was rumored to be
          Jesus' illegitimate father -- or at least Origen did not report a name
          (unfortunately my copy of Origen's Contra Celsum is in my office at school).
          The rumor is not mentioned in the Mishna which is not surprising since that
          collection of rabbinic lore is largely legal in nature & contains few
          aggadic tales. Rabbinic stories in Talmud, Tosefta etc. that identify a "ben
          Pantera" or "ben Pandira" as the illegitimate offspring of a Roman soldier
          do not explicitly mention the name of Jesus [if they had Xn censors would
          certainly have burned these books]. But other rabbinic tales explicity
          identify this ben Pandira as Jesus (Yeshua). Cf. Tosefta Hullin 2.22-23 in
          my *Into His Own* URL
          http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/jesus.html#snakebite
          Few scholars would suggest that Celsus' reference to Jesus' paternity & the
          ben Pantera/Pandira of rabbinic lore are unrelated rumors. The fact that we
          have to piece together the Pantera rumor from several sources is
          attributable to a well-documented history of Xns destroying works that
          contradicted Orthodox doctrine.

          At any rate we have far wider literary evidence of the currency of a rumor
          that Jesus was son of a Roman soldier than we have of the name of an
          *Alexander* b. Shim'on. For even Matt & Luke fail to echo Mark on that
          detail.

          > 4. The location of the Jewish ossuary is located much closer to the events
          > described than the connection of Pantera with Sidon on a grave in Europe.

          I fail to follow your logic here. Though Tiberius Pantera's grave is in
          Europe -- due to his 40 years of service in the Roman military -- he is
          described as a native of Sidon, a Lebanese city that is about 70 miles from
          Nazareth & therefore a lot closer to HJ's probable place of origin than any
          Judean city. It is the relative proximity of the place of Tiberius Pantera's
          origin to HJ's hometown that is relevant to the tombstone's role in
          supporting the legend, not the fact that he happened to die in Europe.

          Mark 7:31 even reports Jesus taking an unexplained detour "through Sidon"
          situated 25 mis. due north of Tyre (the site of his encounter with the
          Syro-Phoenician woman) on his way to the Sea of Galilee (which lies 25 miles
          southeast of Tyre). So even Mark does not regard some association of Jesus
          with Sidon extraordinary. (Remember it is Mark who identifies Jesus only as
          "son of Mary" & never reports the name of his human father).

          As for the location of the Jewish ossuary containing the bones of Alexander
          b. Shim'on: that attests only this Alexander's probable residence near
          Jerusalem -- something Mark fails to mention, if in fact these Alexanders
          are to be regarded as the same person. Note that Avigad did not claim to
          recover the remains of Alexander's father Shim'on in that ossuary. So this
          Jerusalem burial relic presents no concrete evidence that the father Simon
          ever himself visited much less lived in Jerusalem. Note also that the
          inscription of the ossuary claims that *Alexander* was himself from Cyrene.
          So it is quite conceivable that this Alexander's father never left his
          homeland. Thus the ossuary's location outside Jerusalem presents absolutely
          no concrete evidence to support the historicity of the only *event* that
          Mark credits to a member of this family (i.e. the Roman enlistment of Simon
          of Cyrene to carry Jesus cross as he was approaching the city).

          > 5. The Pantera tradition is clearly polemical rather than historical in
          > nature. On the other hand, the mention of Alexander b. Shim'on by Mark
          > plays only a minor role in the story, which indicates to me that the
          > motivation for inventing the Pantera tradition is stronger than the
          > motivation for inventing a tradition about Alexander b. Shim'on.

          Were it not for the coincidence of the discovery of the 1st c. tombstone of
          a Roman soldier with the unusual name of Pantera I might be inclined to
          agree with you (& Origen) that the rabbinic references to Jesus as ben
          Pantera could easily be dismissed as a total fiction designed to discredit
          Xn claims of Jesus' virgin birth. Since Jane Schaberg's study on the case
          for the illegitimacy of Jesus, however, I have to admit the opposite is just
          as likely to be the case: i.e., that Xn claims of Mary's virginity were a
          "mask" designed to turn the disgrace of Jesus' illegitimacy to theological
          advantage. Cf. par 21 URL

          http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/illegit.html

          As for Mark's reference to Alexander b. Shim'on, I would hardly characterize
          this as a tradition, since Mark is the only gospel writer who ever mentioned
          this Alexander. I agree that Mark's off-handed allusion to Alexander *seems*
          to be ingenuous. But he might have introduced this historicizing aside to
          give credence to the otherwise questionable claim that Roman soldiers
          exempted Jesus whom they had scourged & were on the verge of crucifying from
          the ordeal of lugging his own cross.

          So IMHO it is a toss-up as to which link between grave relic & rumor
          presents a "stronger correlation." As I read the evidence, neither case is
          particularly strong. But if I had to bet I *might* join Jane Schaberg in
          wagering that the ben Pantera tradition may have a better claim to a core of
          historical truth than the synoptic report that Romans relieved HJ of the
          burden of having to bear his own cross to the site of his execution. In that
          case my vote would neutralize yours.

          Shalom!

          Mahlon



          Mahlon H. Smith
          Department of Religion
          Rutgers University
          New Brunswick NJ 08901

          http://religion.rutgers.edu/mh_smith.html

          Synoptic Gospels Primer
          http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/primer/

          Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
          http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:05 PM
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Historical vs. Legendary Characters (was Dating of
          GMark)


          > At 04:45 PM 12/3/01 +0000, you wrote:
          > >On 3 Dec 2001 at 7:55, Bob Schacht wrote:
          > >
          > > > I think your emphasis indicates your bias. Clearly, you don't *want*
          > > > the two Alexanders to be the same person. To equate the evidence for
          > > > Cyrenian Alexander b. Shim'on in a Jewish cemetery in Jerusalem as
          > > > Alexander b. Shim'on in Mark whose father is reported by Mark in
          > > > Jerusalem with the evidence from the tomb *in Germany*, if I remember
          > > > correctly, of a Roman soldier from Sidon named Tiberius Julius Abdes
          > > > Pantera as the same as the Pantera (not Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera)
          > > > mentioned in some Mishnaic tracts dating hundreds of years later than
          > > > Mark shows a very skewed set of balanced scales, I'm afraid.
          > >
          > >I think you may be being a little harsh on Mahlon here, Bob.
          >
          > Perhaps so; Mahlon is usually right, and I respect his scholarship
          greatly.
          > But what I was reacting to was his bald assertion that
          > >I tend to agree with Michael Turton that the ossuary of Alexander b.
          > Shim'on is
          > > *no more*
          > >evidence that "these individuals are not legendary characters but real
          > >historical figures" than the discovery of the tomb of a Roman soldier
          from
          > >Sidon named Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera is evidence that Jewish claims
          > >that Jesus' father was a Roman soldier named Pantera involved a "real
          > >historical figure."
          >
          > I added emphasis to his words "no more." Both cases involve burial data
          > compared with textual data.
          >
          >
          > > On balance, we can't say much more than that this could be the
          character
          > >referred to by Mark. It's quite interesting and certainly worth our
          > >attention, but I don't know that we can go much further than that.
          > >The Panthera tradition isn't anything like as late as you suggest.
          > >The earliest reference is in Origen (3rd C.) and he is clearly
          > >referring to Celsus's tradition on this (mid-late 2nd C.), within
          > >100 years of the publication of the Gospels (see Contra Celsum,
          > >1.32).
          >
          > I argue that the evidence is stronger for Alexander b. Shim'on than for
          > Pantera based on these data:
          > 1. Mark is 100 years earlier than the Pantera tradition. 35 years after
          the
          > events depicted is better than 135 years later.
          > 2. Alexander b. Shim'on is identified by the confluence of two names, not
          > just one as with Pantera.
          > 3. If I remember correctly, Pantera in the Pantera tradition is not
          > *explicitly* identified as the father of Jesus, and requires several
          > assumptions to make the connection. But perhaps I am remembering the
          > Mishnaic versions and not Contra Celsus
          > 4. The location of the Jewish ossuary is located much closer to the events
          > described than the connection of Pantera with Sidon on a grave in Europe.
          > 5. The Pantera tradition is clearly polemical rather than historical in
          > nature. On the other hand, the mention of Alexander b. Shim'on by Mark
          > plays only a minor role in the story, which indicates to me that the
          > motivation for inventing the Pantera tradition is stronger than the
          > motivation for inventing a tradition about Alexander b. Shim'on.
          >
          > Again, I don't think this constitutes "proof", but it is, to me, better
          > evidence than the Pantera tradition. So again, to equate the strength of
          > the evidence in these two cases is, to me, just bizarre.
          >
          > But in any case my apologies to Mahlon if my response was too tart.
          >
          >
          > >Thankyou very much, by the way, for the helpful feedback on my SBL
          > >paper, and to others -- especially Ken Olson -- who have provided
          > >similarly useful feedback. More anon.
          > >
          > >Mark
          >
          >
          > Good! Don't let this drop. I look forward to your replies in this regard.
          > Thanks,
          > Bob
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
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        • Mahlon H. Smith
          ... Thanks Mark. Like Bob I sit corrected. Just goes to show how right you were in assuring Bob that I am not always right ;-) I m such a print scholar that I
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 3, 2001
            Mark Goodacre wrote:

            > It's explicit in Contra Celsum. I copy this from the on-line CCEL
            > Ante-Nicene fathers collection:

            Thanks Mark. Like Bob I sit corrected. Just goes to show how right you were
            in assuring Bob that I am not always right ;-)

            I'm such a print scholar that I have yet to learn always to check the
            on-line classic texts that I know full well are just a click away.

            BTW. For anyone else who is interested. The CCEL URL for Origen's citation
            of Celsus' reference to Panthera is

            http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-55.htm#P7657_1778987

            Shalom!

            Mahlon

            Mahlon H. Smith
            Department of Religion
            Rutgers University
            New Brunswick NJ 08901

            http://religion.rutgers.edu/mh_smith.html

            Synoptic Gospels Primer
            http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/primer/

            Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
            http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/
          • Stephen C. Carlson
            ... Given my participation in the aforementioned thread, I could not let this pass without comment. First, the view that Mark was written in Rome has much
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 4, 2001
              At 12:12 PM 12/3/2001 -0500, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:
              >(1) The thesis thaat Mark wrote to Roman Xns is a patristic tradition that
              >has been challenged by many recent scholars, including Ted Weeden & yours
              >truly in an extended email debate regarding the Provenance of Mark that is
              >still accessible in the archives of this list.

              Given my participation in the aforementioned thread, I could
              not let this pass without comment. First, the view that Mark
              was written in Rome has much more evidentiary support that
              what is stated here. It is is not based only on various
              patristic traditions (note plural) but also, as Hengel has
              ably argued, on a congruence of internal criteria that all
              independently point to a Roman provenance.

              Second, even though it has become fashionable for some scholars
              to dispute a Roman provenance for Mark, they are hardly in
              agreement as to where Mark was written. You, Mahlon, have
              called for Judea, Weeden has suggested Galilee, and Joel
              Marcus has pooh-poohed both ideas calling for Syria instead.
              A close examination of the positive reasons for the alternate
              sites for Mark shows that much of the same evidence supports
              Rome about as well.

              For example, Marcus argues for Syria because it was "close enough
              in contact with many traditions about Jesus", but given the Pax
              Romana, so was the capital Rome, which already had a sizeable
              church at the time of Paul's letter to the Romans. Marcus says
              that Syria was "also a predominantly Gentile region and an area
              of Pauline influence" -- so was Rome. The term "Syrophoenician"
              is appropriate not just in Syria, but in Rome too. Finally,
              Marcus argues that Syria fits with Mark's emphasis on persecution
              due to massacres of Jews by Gantiles there, but Rome remains the
              best attested place in the first century where Christians per se
              were persecuted, in Nero's reign.

              Furthermore, the arguments for an Eastern provenance have
              not been able to factor out successfully the fact that the
              plot of Mark takes place in Galilee and Judea. Just because
              Mark's gospel states that there will be a resurrection appearance
              in Galilee does not mean that Mark was written in Galilee.

              If one is to view the evidence in favor of Rome as (overly)
              skeptically as the challengers, applying the same standard
              to the evidence asserted in favor an Eastern provenance
              would result in absolutely nothing left to go on.

              Stephen Carlson
              --
              Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
              Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
              "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
            • RSBrenchley@aol.com
              ... Jerome, ... Could Papias be writing partly from a desire to justify two divergent texts? Mark used Peter, so had an accurate source, but did not write the
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 16, 2001
                Stephen Carlson writes:

                > In terms of substance, it is an overstatement to claim that Papias reported
                > that "Mark records the preaching of Peter" and that Mark "preserves Peter's
                > testimony" as if Mark were some sort of transcript of Peter's preaching.
                > That
                > is not how Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria understood the situation, and
                > they -- unlike us -- had Papias's full statement in its context. Clement
                > asserted that Peter did not endorse Mark's gospel. This is hardly the
                > behavior of a person whose preaching and/or testimony was recorded.
                > Irenaeus
                > tells us that Mark's gospel was composed after Peter's "departure." Most
                > likely, Irenaeus meant after Peter's death, but in any case Peter was not
                > around when Mark composed his gospel, according to Irenaeus. In fact, the
                > dictation theory does not appear in the tradition until the 5th-cen.
                Jerome,
                > who has shown no independent knowledge of Papias's remarks (in fact, Jerome
                > denied having translated Papias into Latin). Thus, the idea that Papias,
                > Clement, and even Irenaeus were operating under the presumption of Petrine
                > inspiration is an anachronism.

                Could Papias be writing partly from a desire to justify two divergent
                texts? Mark used Peter, so had an accurate source, but did not write the
                story down in order. He 'kept a single aim in view: not to omit anything of
                what he heard, nor to state anything therein falsely'. As you say, that does
                not preclude other sources.

                Matthew, on the other hand, is presumed to be the Matthew named as 'one
                of the Lord's disciples', and is therefore an eyewitness. So he's likely to
                get the order right. On the other hand, he 'compiled the oracles in the
                Hebrew language [or dialect], but everyone translated them as he was able'.
                So we shouldn't be too surprised if the details are occasionally somewhat
                inaccurate; this would be due to poor translation. Maybe the translator
                wasn't very able.

                So on this picture, we have a neat explanation of why these two Gospels
                differ in so many details, which avoids impugning either of them.

                Regards,

                Robert Brenchley

                RSBrenchley@...
                Birmingham, UK.
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