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Re: [XTalk] Proto-Marcionite Paul?

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  • Hermann Detering
    STEVE BLACK wrote According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who had this above experience with the wild beasts , and not Paul. HERMANN DETERING
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
      STEVE BLACK wrote

      According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who
      had this above experience with the "wild beasts", and not Paul.

      HERMANN DETERING

      Unfortunately I can only cite the German Version of PH (Hamburger Papyrus):
      "Und fortgeführt wurde er (Paulus) sogleich in das Stadion geworden...Paul
      was thrown into the stadion ...er (Hieronymus) befahl einen sehr wilden
      Löwen .. auf ihn loszulassen ... etc.
      Hennecke Schneemelcher II 1964, p 256ff.

      STEVE BLACK

      ... Am I wrong to suggest that Marcion leaned towards
      celibacy? If this document was a source for the writer of 1
      Cor. 7,
      it conflicts rather distinctly on this issue.This would make

      authorship by Marcion of 1 Cor less likely.

      HERMANN DETERING

      I do not claim that the author of Gal knows Acta Pauli etTheclae but make
      the suggestion that he used (earlier) traditions, which had been worked up
      than in this romance.

      Best
      Hermann Detering




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mgrondin@tir.com
      ... Hermann is right, according to the AoP in Hennecke-Schneemelcher s New Testament Apocrypha . Both Thecla and Paul have experiences with lions and other
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
        --- Steve Black wrote:
        > According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who had this
        > above experience with the "wild beasts", and not Paul. (Alas, I
        > don't have a copy of the Acts of Paul in my library)

        Hermann is right, according to the AoP in Hennecke-Schneemelcher's
        "New Testament Apocrypha". Both Thecla and Paul have experiences
        with lions and other wild beasts in the arena - Thecla in Antioch,
        Paul in Ephesus. But your other point is completely in accord with
        mine, namely that there is anti-Marcionite stuff in AoP that needs
        to be explained if the author of 1 Cor is a Marcionite who embraces
        the AoP. (As well it needs to be explained by more conventional
        theorists what this reference to fighting with lions is doing in
        a genuine Pauline letter!)

        Mike
      • Steve Black
        ... A fairly straight forward suggestion might is that Paul was speaking figuratively when using the word beast . This is a typical Pauline use of rhetoric.
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
          >--- Mike wrote:
          >... needs to be explained by more conventional
          >theorists what this reference to fighting with lions is doing in
          >a genuine Pauline letter!)
          >

          A fairly straight forward suggestion might is that Paul was speaking
          figuratively when using the word "beast". This is a typical Pauline
          use of rhetoric. Acts of Paul might have misunderstood this as
          literal (not unlike ourselves???), and constructed a whole story
          around it.
          No way to prove any of this, but this seems very reasonable to me!
          --

          Steve Black
          Vancouver, BC

          Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question
          ee cummings
        • mgrondin@tir.com
          ... Me too (and I apologize for using the word lion , which is not in the text), but now two possible avenues for supporting this: (1) if Paul had in mind
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
            --- Steve Black wrote:
            > A fairly straight forward suggestion (re: 1Cor15:32) ... is that
            > Paul was speaking figuratively when using the word "beast". This
            > is a typical Pauline use of rhetoric. Acts of Paul might have
            > misunderstood this as literal (not unlike ourselves???), and
            > constructed a whole story around it. No way to prove any of this,
            > but this seems very reasonable to me!

            Me too (and I apologize for using the word 'lion', which is not in
            the text), but now two possible avenues for supporting this: (1) if
            Paul had in mind some personal conflict in which he had been involved
            in Ephesus, it should be possible to point to a specific incident,
            or (2) if he had in mind that Ephesus was generally known for its
            arena "games" involving "beasts" (so that he was arguing via the
            counter-factual "If I were one of those who fight with beasts in
            Ephesus, what do I gain if there's no resurrection?"), again it
            ought to be possible to find something in the historical record.

            Regards,
            Mike
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