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Re: Proto-Marcionite Paul?

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  • mgrondin@tir.com
    ... That s fine as far as it goes, but you present your own theory with a difficulty, for if the author of this portion of 1 Cor is a Marcionite, and if he
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
      --- Hermann Detering wrote:
      > Even in individual details it becomes clear here that the author
      > of 1 Corinthians connected with the Pauline legend and its ...
      > portrayal of the fight with beasts in Ephesus and obviously
      > completely identified with his hero.

      That's fine as far as it goes, but you present your own theory with
      a difficulty, for if the author of this portion of 1 Cor is a
      Marcionite, and if he identifies with the Acts of Paul, then by
      implication he must also have approved of what appear to be
      anti-Marcionite sentiments in AP:

      "They are thus not children of righteousness, but children of wrath,
      who reject the providence of God, saying <far from faith> that
      heaven and earth and all that (are) in them are not works of the
      Father." (3 Cor, in section 8, "Paul in Philippi", Schneemelcher)

      Reductio ad absurdum? Or do you posit also a Catholic redaction
      of the Acts of Paul?

      Mike
    • Hermann Detering
      STEVE BLACK wrote According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who had this above experience with the wild beasts , and not Paul. HERMANN DETERING
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
        STEVE BLACK wrote

        According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who
        had this above experience with the "wild beasts", and not Paul.

        HERMANN DETERING

        Unfortunately I can only cite the German Version of PH (Hamburger Papyrus):
        "Und fortgeführt wurde er (Paulus) sogleich in das Stadion geworden...Paul
        was thrown into the stadion ...er (Hieronymus) befahl einen sehr wilden
        Löwen .. auf ihn loszulassen ... etc.
        Hennecke Schneemelcher II 1964, p 256ff.

        STEVE BLACK

        ... Am I wrong to suggest that Marcion leaned towards
        celibacy? If this document was a source for the writer of 1
        Cor. 7,
        it conflicts rather distinctly on this issue.This would make

        authorship by Marcion of 1 Cor less likely.

        HERMANN DETERING

        I do not claim that the author of Gal knows Acta Pauli etTheclae but make
        the suggestion that he used (earlier) traditions, which had been worked up
        than in this romance.

        Best
        Hermann Detering




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Steve Black
        ... According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who had this above experience with the wild beasts , and not Paul. (Alas, I don t have a copy of
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
          JAN SAMMER wrote:
          > In the Paul and Thecla romance it is
          >Thecla and not Paul who is exposed to wild beasts in an arena. Neither Paul
          >nor Thecla fight any wild beasts and Ephesus is not even mentioned. I
          >therefore do not see the how one "apparently relates" to the other.
          >
          >HERMANN DETERING
          >
          >May I know what edition you are using? The text of the German Hennecke
          >Schneemelcher-translation/edition which is based on PHeid says clearly
          >1: that Paul as well as Thecla are sentenced "ad bestias" (my words) in the
          >>arena (Hippolyt also knows about it as a passage in his Danielcommentary
          >>shows)



          According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who had this
          above experience with the "wild beasts", and not Paul. (Alas, I
          don't have a copy of the Acts of Paul in my library)

          The Acts of Paul also strongly advocates complete celibacy (even when
          married?!?). Am I wrong to suggest that Marcion leaned towards
          celibacy? If this document was a source for the writer of 1 Cor. 7,
          it conflicts rather distinctly on this issue.This would make
          authorship by Marcion of 1 Cor less likely.
          (Of course we can excise the offending passage as a later "catholic"
          addition, which can turn into a rather convenient way out of
          difficulties if used too often...)

          --

          Steve Black
          Vancouver, BC

          Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question
          ee cummings
        • mgrondin@tir.com
          ... Hermann is right, according to the AoP in Hennecke-Schneemelcher s New Testament Apocrypha . Both Thecla and Paul have experiences with lions and other
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
            --- Steve Black wrote:
            > According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary it was Thekla who had this
            > above experience with the "wild beasts", and not Paul. (Alas, I
            > don't have a copy of the Acts of Paul in my library)

            Hermann is right, according to the AoP in Hennecke-Schneemelcher's
            "New Testament Apocrypha". Both Thecla and Paul have experiences
            with lions and other wild beasts in the arena - Thecla in Antioch,
            Paul in Ephesus. But your other point is completely in accord with
            mine, namely that there is anti-Marcionite stuff in AoP that needs
            to be explained if the author of 1 Cor is a Marcionite who embraces
            the AoP. (As well it needs to be explained by more conventional
            theorists what this reference to fighting with lions is doing in
            a genuine Pauline letter!)

            Mike
          • Steve Black
            ... A fairly straight forward suggestion might is that Paul was speaking figuratively when using the word beast . This is a typical Pauline use of rhetoric.
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
              >--- Mike wrote:
              >... needs to be explained by more conventional
              >theorists what this reference to fighting with lions is doing in
              >a genuine Pauline letter!)
              >

              A fairly straight forward suggestion might is that Paul was speaking
              figuratively when using the word "beast". This is a typical Pauline
              use of rhetoric. Acts of Paul might have misunderstood this as
              literal (not unlike ourselves???), and constructed a whole story
              around it.
              No way to prove any of this, but this seems very reasonable to me!
              --

              Steve Black
              Vancouver, BC

              Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question
              ee cummings
            • mgrondin@tir.com
              ... Me too (and I apologize for using the word lion , which is not in the text), but now two possible avenues for supporting this: (1) if Paul had in mind
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 1, 2001
                --- Steve Black wrote:
                > A fairly straight forward suggestion (re: 1Cor15:32) ... is that
                > Paul was speaking figuratively when using the word "beast". This
                > is a typical Pauline use of rhetoric. Acts of Paul might have
                > misunderstood this as literal (not unlike ourselves???), and
                > constructed a whole story around it. No way to prove any of this,
                > but this seems very reasonable to me!

                Me too (and I apologize for using the word 'lion', which is not in
                the text), but now two possible avenues for supporting this: (1) if
                Paul had in mind some personal conflict in which he had been involved
                in Ephesus, it should be possible to point to a specific incident,
                or (2) if he had in mind that Ephesus was generally known for its
                arena "games" involving "beasts" (so that he was arguing via the
                counter-factual "If I were one of those who fight with beasts in
                Ephesus, what do I gain if there's no resurrection?"), again it
                ought to be possible to find something in the historical record.

                Regards,
                Mike
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