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[XTalk] Re: Re:Jubilee

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  • Bernard Muller
    Liz Fried wrote:If so, then 33-35 is a sabbatical-jubilee yearLiz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March. What would be the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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      Liz Fried wrote:
      >

      > If so, then 33-35 is a sabbatical-jubilee year

      Liz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March. What
      would be the Sabbatical year, 33-34 or 34-35?

      What would be the preceding Sabbatical year and, let's say, the next
      three ones? What would be the next Jubilee year?

      >
      > We don't need to count Sabbatical years in Jesus' time from the jubilees of
      > the monarchal period. We have the sabbatical years of Maccabees. We need to
      > count from then.

      What are your references on sabbatical years in Maccabees? Do you have
      references in Maccabees of Jubilee years too? Where?

      Bernard
      http://www.concentric.net/~Mullerb/

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    • Liz Fried
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      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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        > From: Bernard Muller

        >
        > Liz Fried wrote:

        >
        > Liz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March.
        I'm talking about Jewish years, September to September.

        What
        > would be the Sabbatical year, 33-34 or 34-35?
        Assuming CE, the sabbatical year would be fall 33 to fall 34.



        >
        > What would be the preceding Sabbatical year and, let's say, the next
        > three ones? What would be the next Jubilee year?
        I remember writing these all down, year by year, and counting them out.
        I'll let someone else do it now.

        > >
        > > We don't need to count Sabbatical years in Jesus' time from the
        > jubilees of
        > > the monarchal period. We have the sabbatical years of
        > Maccabees. We need to
        > > count from then.
        >
        > What are your references on sabbatical years in Maccabees? Do you have
        > references in Maccabees of Jubilee years too? Where?
        This was worked out nicely by Lester Grabbe, in JBL about 5 years ago I
        think.
        If I have time I'll try to get out the article and see what his dates are.

        Best,

        Liz

        Lisbeth S. Fried
        Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
        New York University
        51 Washington Sq. S.
        New York, NY 10012
        lqf9256@...
        lizfried@...


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      • Basil Lourie
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        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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          > I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year
          > (i.e., the
          > year after the seventh sabbatical year), and hence occurs every
          > 49 years.
          I don't understand this statement. It is the 50th year. The counting begins
          the year after the Jubilee year. That is year one. Seven periods of seven
          make 49 years after the last Jubilee year. The next year is the 50th year
          after the last Jubilee year. The 50th year is not counted in the cycle.
          There are 49 years between every jubilee year.


          The situation may be even worse: *both* countings are possible. I would like
          to know more precisely about the source re: each kind of procedure. In the
          Temple Scroll and some other sources (incl. Christian Ethiopic ones) there
          is certainly a procedure of counting of "Jubilees" of Sabbaths where every
          50th Sabbath is counted twice, that is, there is no Sabbath (week) which is
          not counted in the cycle. This counting of weeks must be (I think, without
          assurance) of the same mode as that of years in the respective communities.
          Beckwith ("The Year of Messiah") is pressuposing 49-year Jubilees in the Bk
          of Jubilees. Dealing with some early Christian calendars I found also 50-day
          "Jubilee of weeks" sometimes likely. However, I have never seen a special
          study on the different possibilities in counting of Jubilees.

          Basil Lourie
          revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
          St. Petersburg, Russia


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        • dhindley@compuserve.com
          Basil Lourie wrote:I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year (i.e., the year after the seventh sabbatical year), and
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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            Basil Lourie wrote:

            > > I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year
            > > (i.e., the
            > > year after the seventh sabbatical year), and hence occurs every
            > > 49 years.
            >
            > I don't understand this statement. It is the 50th year. The counting begins
            > the year after the Jubilee year. That is year one. Seven periods of seven
            > make 49 years after the last Jubilee year. The next year is the 50th year
            > after the last Jubilee year. The 50th year is not counted in the cycle.
            > There are 49 years between every jubilee year.
            >
            >
            > The situation may be even worse: *both* countings are possible. I would like
            > to know more precisely about the source re: each kind of procedure. In the
            > Temple Scroll and some other sources (incl. Christian Ethiopic ones) there
            > is certainly a procedure of counting of "Jubilees" of Sabbaths where every
            > 50th Sabbath is counted twice, that is, there is no Sabbath (week) which is
            > not counted in the cycle. This counting of weeks must be (I think, without
            > assurance) of the same mode as that of years in the respective communities.
            > Beckwith ("The Year of Messiah") is pressuposing 49-year Jubilees in the Bk
            > of Jubilees. Dealing with some early Christian calendars I found also 50-day
            > "Jubilee of weeks" sometimes likely. However, I have never seen a special
            > study on the different possibilities in counting of Jubilees.

            Archbishop Ussher thought that they marked 50 year periods. The Book of Jubilees (at least in the Ethiopic rescension and probably in the DSS) thinks of them as 49 year periods, and has little to say about the 50th year.

            The way I understand it is as follows:

            01,02,03,...48,49,50
            01,02,03,...48,49,50
            01,02,03, etc.

            This means each jubilee year is celebrated in the first year of the next jubilee.

            RSV Leviticus 25:8 "And you shall count
            seven weeks of years, seven times seven
            years, so that the time of the seven
            weeks of years shall be to you forty-nine
            years. 9 Then you shall send abroad the
            loud trumpet on the tenth day of the
            seventh month; on the day of atonement
            you shall send abroad the trumpet
            throughout all your land. 10 And you shall
            hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
            liberty throughout the land to all its
            inhabitants; it shall be a jubilee for you,
            when each of you shall return to his
            property and each of you shall return to
            his family. 11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth
            year be to you; in it you shall neither
            sow, nor reap what grows of itself, nor
            gather the grapes from the undressed
            vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be
            holy to you; you shall eat what it yields
            out of the field. 13 "In this year of jubilee
            each of you shall return to his property.
            14 And if you sell to your neighbor or buy
            from your neighbor, you shall not wrong
            one another. 15 According to the number
            of years after the jubilee, you shall buy
            from your neighbor, and according to the
            number of years for crops he shall sell to
            you. 16 If the years are many you shall
            increase the price, and if the years are
            few you shall diminish the price, for it is
            the number of the crops that he is selling
            to you. 17 You shall not wrong one
            another, but you shall fear your God; for I
            am the LORD your God.

            RSV Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be
            sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine; for
            you are strangers and sojourners with
            me. 24 And in all the country you
            possess, you shall grant a redemption of
            the land. 25 "If your brother becomes
            poor, and sells part of his property, then
            his next of kin shall come and redeem
            what his brother has sold. 26 If a man
            has no one to redeem it, and then himself
            becomes prosperous and finds sufficient
            means to redeem it, 27 let him reckon
            the years since he sold it and pay back
            the overpayment to the man to whom he
            sold it; and he shall return to his property.
            28 But if he has not sufficient means to
            get it back for himself, then what he sold
            shall remain in the hand of him who
            bought it until the year of jubilee; in the
            jubilee it shall be released, and he shall
            return to his property. 29 "If a man sells a
            dwelling house in a walled city, he may
            redeem it within a whole year after its
            sale; for a full year he shall have the right
            of redemption. 30 If it is not redeemed
            within a full year, then the house that is in
            the walled city shall be made sure in
            perpetuity to him who bought it,
            throughout his generations; it shall not be
            released in the jubilee. 31 But the houses
            of the villages which have no wall around
            them shall be reckoned with the fields of
            the country; they may be redeemed, and
            they shall be released in the jubilee. 32
            Nevertheless the cities of the Levites, the
            houses in the cities of their possession,
            the Levites may redeem at any time. 33
            And if one of the Levites does not
            exercise his right of redemption, then the
            house that was sold in a city of their
            possession shall be released in the
            jubilee; for the houses in the cities of the
            Levites are their possession among the
            people of Israel. 34 But the fields of
            common land belonging to their cities
            may not be sold; for that is their perpetual
            possession.

            RSV Leviticus 25:40 he shall be with you
            as a hired servant and as a sojourner. He
            shall serve with you until the year of the
            jubilee; 41 then he shall go out from you,
            he and his children with him, and go back
            to his own family, and return to the
            possession of his fathers. 42 For they are
            my servants, whom I brought forth out of
            the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold
            as slaves.

            RSV Leviticus 25:47 "If a stranger or
            sojourner with you becomes rich, and
            your brother beside him becomes poor
            and sells himself to the stranger or
            sojourner with you, or to a member of the
            stranger's family, 48 then after he is sold
            he may be redeemed; one of his brothers
            may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his
            cousin may redeem him, or a near
            kinsman belonging to his family may
            redeem him; or if he grows rich he may
            redeem himself. 50 He shall reckon with
            him who bought him from the year when
            he sold himself to him until the year of
            jubilee, and the price of his release shall
            be according to the number of years; the
            time he was with his owner shall be rated
            as the time of a hired servant. 51 If there
            are still many years, according to them
            he shall refund out of the price paid for
            him the price for his redemption. 52 If
            there remain but a few years until the
            year of jubilee, he shall make a reckoning
            with him; according to the years of
            service due from him he shall refund the
            money for his redemption. 53 As a
            servant hired year by year shall he be
            with him; he shall not rule with harshness
            over him in your sight. 54 And if he is not
            redeemed by these means, then he shall
            be released in the year of jubilee, he and
            his children with him. 55 For to me the
            people of Israel are servants, they are my
            servants whom I brought forth out of the
            land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

            Regards,

            Dave Hindley
            Cleveland, OH


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          • Liz Fried
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            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 3, 1999
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: dhindley@...


              > The way I understand it is as follows:
              >
              > 01,02,03,...48,49,50
              > 01,02,03,...48,49,50
              > 01,02,03, etc.
              >
              > This means each jubilee year is celebrated in the first year of
              > the next jubilee.
              At least the way it appears above, that's not the way you've drawn it.
              I think that the book of Juiblees assumed a 49 year cycle. I think that
              somewhere near the end of the Persian period the Jubilee was dropped as a
              second fallow year. I think in Jubilees the seventh sabbatical year is the
              Jubilee year. I figured out that the sabbatical years in Maccabees only
              made sense if you assume the Jubilee year was dropped near the end of the
              Persian period. If you assume that, then the sabbatical years in Maccabees
              fit in with the sabbatical and juiblee years I had determined for the
              Monarchic period.

              >
              > RSV Leviticus 25:8 "And you shall count
              > seven weeks of years, seven times seven
              > years, so that the time of the seven
              > weeks of years shall be to you forty-nine
              > years.
              That is, forty-nine complete years.

              9 Then
              *after* the completion of the 49th year.

              you shall send abroad the
              > loud trumpet on the tenth day of the
              > seventh month; on the day of atonement
              > you shall send abroad the trumpet
              > throughout all your land.
              Although it says the seventh month to conform to
              the Babylonian calendar,
              the Jewish New Year was in the fall, the first day of the 7th
              month was the first day of the year.
              The 10th day of the seventh month signalled the
              end of the New Year's festivities, and the beginning of the next year.


              10 And you shall
              > hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
              > liberty throughout the land to all its
              > inhabitants;
              This is proclaimed at the *beginning* of the 50th year.

              it shall be a jubilee for you,
              > when each of you shall return to his
              > property and each of you shall return to
              > his family.
              Complete manumission of all the slaves,
              no matter how long each has worked for you.

              11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth
              > year be to you; in it you shall neither
              > sow, nor reap what grows of itself, nor
              > gather the grapes from the undressed
              > vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be
              > holy to you; you shall eat what it yields
              > out of the field. 13 "In this year of jubilee
              > each of you shall return to his property.

              Everyone returns to the status quo ante.
              >
              Liz
              Lisbeth S. Fried
              Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
              New York University
              51 Washington Sq. S.
              New York, NY 10012
              lqf9256@...
              lizfried@...


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            • Michael T. MacDonell
              Dear All:Is there a searchable archive up and running? If so, does it include the old Crosstalk postings? If not, how can they be accessed.Sorry to be
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 4, 1999
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                Dear All:

                Is there a searchable archive up and running? If so, does it include the
                old Crosstalk postings? If not, how can they be accessed.

                Sorry to be dense, this has probably been discussed already.

                Best Regards,
                Mike MacDonell
                ____________________________


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