Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

[XTalk] Re: Re:Jubilee

Expand Messages
  • Liz Fried
    ... To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Jim West [mailto:jwest@...]

      > Commonality of practice in literary sources does not mean,
      > necessarily, that
      > the jubilee was actually practiced in fact. As a literary trope it sounds
      > wonderfully nice to say that so and so cancelled debt. But getting actual
      > creditors to agree, wholesale, to forgive every debt owed them would put
      > them out of business. It simply makes no practical sense. Do we have any
      > evidence, textual or otherwise, from a debtor saying his creditor
      > forgave him?
      We don't have these unfortunately because when the debt was forgiven the
      tablet was broken. We do have the royal edicts from Babylonia which remit
      debts, and which decree that property must be returned to the original
      owner.
      These usually occurred at the accession of a new king, but also at other
      times. In my opinion, they were decreed by the king to prevent the rise of
      a powerful landed aristrocracy which might compete with him for power.
      Although we don't have the tablets acknowledging a forgiveness of debts, we
      do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not* revert back
      to the original owner in the event of an anduarum. It is these, not the
      decrees, which convince us that it was a real occurrence in Mesopotamia.

      Scholars believe it did not occur in Israel because according to Leviticus
      these were to occur regularly, every 50 years. Scholars argue that if you
      would not lend money, or sell property if the anduarum approached. I think
      actually that was a real problem, but they probably handled it the same way
      the Babylonians did, made the sale permanent regardless of the approaching
      time of the deror.

      The tenth year of Zedekiah can be dated to 588-587. During this year there
      was a general manumission of (Hebrew) slaves (albeit rescinded). During this
      year Jeremiah redeemed his cousin's land. Fifty years later, exactly,
      Isaiah announces the return of Jews to their homeland in language of the
      deror. 100 years prior to Zedekiah's tenth year, 688-687, would also have
      been a Jubilee year, and the year before that a sabbatical year. Those who
      suggest a second campaign of Sennacherib to Judah put it to 689-688, the
      sabbatical year preceding the Jubilee year. In Isaiah 37:30=2 Kings 19:29
      we read what Isaiah says to Hezekiah during a siege by Sennacherib: "This
      shall be for you the sign: Eat this year the saPiaH, and in the second year
      the saHis, in the third year plant and harvest." The word saPiaH is used
      only one other time in the HB, in Lev. 25:5. It is what springs up by itself
      from kernels accidently spilled during harvest the year before. The word
      saHis does not occur elsewhere, but its meaning is obvious. It seems Isaiah
      iis telling Hezekiah to keep two falow years in a row.
      It all may be simply coincidences, but it is suggestive, it seems to me. It
      also makes sense that a siege by Sennacherib and a siege by Nebuchadnezzar
      would both be during the time when there would be two fallow years in a row,
      a sabbatical followed by a jubilee. Indeed, the extreme vulnerability of
      the people during this time is one reason to forego the jubilee year.

      Liz
      Lisbeth S. Fried
      Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
      New York University
      51 Washington Sq. S.
      New York, NY 10012
      lqf9256@...
      lizfried@...


      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
      To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
    • Jim West
      At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote: we do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not* revert back to the original owner in the event of an
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
        At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
        we
        >do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not* revert back
        >to the original owner in the event of an anduarum.

        It is the little phrase "in the event of" which tells me that the event is
        not at all certain...

        My life insurance will not pay "in the event" that I take my own life.

        >It is these, not the
        >decrees, which convince us that it was a real occurrence in Mesopotamia.

        But the problem, as I see it, and I probably wont say any more about it, is
        that the event may never have arisen- making the whole concept mere paper
        legislation.

        >
        >The tenth year of Zedekiah can be dated to 588-587. During this year there
        >was a general manumission of (Hebrew) slaves (albeit rescinded).

        Indeed- and anything rescinded was, for all practical purposes, not done.

        >It all may be simply coincidences, but it is suggestive, it seems to me. It
        >also makes sense that a siege by Sennacherib and a siege by Nebuchadnezzar
        >would both be during the time when there would be two fallow years in a row,
        >a sabbatical followed by a jubilee. Indeed, the extreme vulnerability of
        >the people during this time is one reason to forego the jubilee year.

        hmmm..... now one must wonder if the writers havent calculated as cleverly
        as you have and made the chronology fit for another reason. Anyway- we are
        now pretty far afield from the historical Jesus... so I will desist. I look
        forward to seeing the whole of your excursus in the Leviticus volume.
        I hope you will convince me. I want to be convinced that the poor people
        would actually experience such kindness--- I just dont think they did, do,
        or ever will.


        Best,

        Jim

        +++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Jim West, ThD
        email- jwest@...
        web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
        To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
      • Liz Fried
        ... To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Jim West [mailto:jwest@...]

          >
          > At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
          > we
          > >do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not*
          > revert back
          > >to the original owner in the event of an anduarum.
          >
          > It is the little phrase "in the event of" which tells me that the event is
          > not at all certain...
          The events were certain, but they were not predictable. They occurred, and
          had to be planned for. When was another story.

          > My life insurance will not pay "in the event" that I take my own life.
          Which proves that people do, occasionally, and umpredictably take their own
          lives.

          > >
          > >The tenth year of Zedekiah can be dated to 588-587. During this
          > year there
          > >was a general manumission of (Hebrew) slaves (albeit rescinded).
          >
          > Indeed- and anything rescinded was, for all practical purposes, not done.
          Yes, certainly, but it seems they thought they *ought* to do it, and in this
          particular year. That is the point.

          >
          > I want to be convinced that the poor people
          > would actually experience such kindness--- I just dont think they did, do,
          > or ever will.
          My point is that it is not a kindness to the poor and wasn't intended to be.
          It was a kindness to the king, imo, because he could use it to keep the
          aristocracy at bay. It was the slaves of the aristocracy he freed, and the
          land of those who added "house to house and field to field" he took. It was
          always to cement the power of the king.


          Best,
          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried
          Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
          New York University
          51 Washington Sq. S.
          New York, NY 10012
          lqf9256@...
          lizfried@...



          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
          To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
        • Bernard Muller
          Liz Fried wrote:If so, then 33-35 is a sabbatical-jubilee yearLiz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March. What would be the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
            Liz Fried wrote:
            >

            > If so, then 33-35 is a sabbatical-jubilee year

            Liz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March. What
            would be the Sabbatical year, 33-34 or 34-35?

            What would be the preceding Sabbatical year and, let's say, the next
            three ones? What would be the next Jubilee year?

            >
            > We don't need to count Sabbatical years in Jesus' time from the jubilees of
            > the monarchal period. We have the sabbatical years of Maccabees. We need to
            > count from then.

            What are your references on sabbatical years in Maccabees? Do you have
            references in Maccabees of Jubilee years too? Where?

            Bernard
            http://www.concentric.net/~Mullerb/

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
            To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
          • Liz Fried
            ... To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
              > From: Bernard Muller

              >
              > Liz Fried wrote:

              >
              > Liz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March.
              I'm talking about Jewish years, September to September.

              What
              > would be the Sabbatical year, 33-34 or 34-35?
              Assuming CE, the sabbatical year would be fall 33 to fall 34.



              >
              > What would be the preceding Sabbatical year and, let's say, the next
              > three ones? What would be the next Jubilee year?
              I remember writing these all down, year by year, and counting them out.
              I'll let someone else do it now.

              > >
              > > We don't need to count Sabbatical years in Jesus' time from the
              > jubilees of
              > > the monarchal period. We have the sabbatical years of
              > Maccabees. We need to
              > > count from then.
              >
              > What are your references on sabbatical years in Maccabees? Do you have
              > references in Maccabees of Jubilee years too? Where?
              This was worked out nicely by Lester Grabbe, in JBL about 5 years ago I
              think.
              If I have time I'll try to get out the article and see what his dates are.

              Best,

              Liz

              Lisbeth S. Fried
              Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
              New York University
              51 Washington Sq. S.
              New York, NY 10012
              lqf9256@...
              lizfried@...


              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
              To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
            • Basil Lourie
              ... To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
                > I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year
                > (i.e., the
                > year after the seventh sabbatical year), and hence occurs every
                > 49 years.
                I don't understand this statement. It is the 50th year. The counting begins
                the year after the Jubilee year. That is year one. Seven periods of seven
                make 49 years after the last Jubilee year. The next year is the 50th year
                after the last Jubilee year. The 50th year is not counted in the cycle.
                There are 49 years between every jubilee year.


                The situation may be even worse: *both* countings are possible. I would like
                to know more precisely about the source re: each kind of procedure. In the
                Temple Scroll and some other sources (incl. Christian Ethiopic ones) there
                is certainly a procedure of counting of "Jubilees" of Sabbaths where every
                50th Sabbath is counted twice, that is, there is no Sabbath (week) which is
                not counted in the cycle. This counting of weeks must be (I think, without
                assurance) of the same mode as that of years in the respective communities.
                Beckwith ("The Year of Messiah") is pressuposing 49-year Jubilees in the Bk
                of Jubilees. Dealing with some early Christian calendars I found also 50-day
                "Jubilee of weeks" sometimes likely. However, I have never seen a special
                study on the different possibilities in counting of Jubilees.

                Basil Lourie
                revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
                St. Petersburg, Russia


                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
              • dhindley@compuserve.com
                Basil Lourie wrote:I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year (i.e., the year after the seventh sabbatical year), and
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
                  Basil Lourie wrote:

                  > > I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year
                  > > (i.e., the
                  > > year after the seventh sabbatical year), and hence occurs every
                  > > 49 years.
                  >
                  > I don't understand this statement. It is the 50th year. The counting begins
                  > the year after the Jubilee year. That is year one. Seven periods of seven
                  > make 49 years after the last Jubilee year. The next year is the 50th year
                  > after the last Jubilee year. The 50th year is not counted in the cycle.
                  > There are 49 years between every jubilee year.
                  >
                  >
                  > The situation may be even worse: *both* countings are possible. I would like
                  > to know more precisely about the source re: each kind of procedure. In the
                  > Temple Scroll and some other sources (incl. Christian Ethiopic ones) there
                  > is certainly a procedure of counting of "Jubilees" of Sabbaths where every
                  > 50th Sabbath is counted twice, that is, there is no Sabbath (week) which is
                  > not counted in the cycle. This counting of weeks must be (I think, without
                  > assurance) of the same mode as that of years in the respective communities.
                  > Beckwith ("The Year of Messiah") is pressuposing 49-year Jubilees in the Bk
                  > of Jubilees. Dealing with some early Christian calendars I found also 50-day
                  > "Jubilee of weeks" sometimes likely. However, I have never seen a special
                  > study on the different possibilities in counting of Jubilees.

                  Archbishop Ussher thought that they marked 50 year periods. The Book of Jubilees (at least in the Ethiopic rescension and probably in the DSS) thinks of them as 49 year periods, and has little to say about the 50th year.

                  The way I understand it is as follows:

                  01,02,03,...48,49,50
                  01,02,03,...48,49,50
                  01,02,03, etc.

                  This means each jubilee year is celebrated in the first year of the next jubilee.

                  RSV Leviticus 25:8 "And you shall count
                  seven weeks of years, seven times seven
                  years, so that the time of the seven
                  weeks of years shall be to you forty-nine
                  years. 9 Then you shall send abroad the
                  loud trumpet on the tenth day of the
                  seventh month; on the day of atonement
                  you shall send abroad the trumpet
                  throughout all your land. 10 And you shall
                  hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
                  liberty throughout the land to all its
                  inhabitants; it shall be a jubilee for you,
                  when each of you shall return to his
                  property and each of you shall return to
                  his family. 11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth
                  year be to you; in it you shall neither
                  sow, nor reap what grows of itself, nor
                  gather the grapes from the undressed
                  vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be
                  holy to you; you shall eat what it yields
                  out of the field. 13 "In this year of jubilee
                  each of you shall return to his property.
                  14 And if you sell to your neighbor or buy
                  from your neighbor, you shall not wrong
                  one another. 15 According to the number
                  of years after the jubilee, you shall buy
                  from your neighbor, and according to the
                  number of years for crops he shall sell to
                  you. 16 If the years are many you shall
                  increase the price, and if the years are
                  few you shall diminish the price, for it is
                  the number of the crops that he is selling
                  to you. 17 You shall not wrong one
                  another, but you shall fear your God; for I
                  am the LORD your God.

                  RSV Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be
                  sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine; for
                  you are strangers and sojourners with
                  me. 24 And in all the country you
                  possess, you shall grant a redemption of
                  the land. 25 "If your brother becomes
                  poor, and sells part of his property, then
                  his next of kin shall come and redeem
                  what his brother has sold. 26 If a man
                  has no one to redeem it, and then himself
                  becomes prosperous and finds sufficient
                  means to redeem it, 27 let him reckon
                  the years since he sold it and pay back
                  the overpayment to the man to whom he
                  sold it; and he shall return to his property.
                  28 But if he has not sufficient means to
                  get it back for himself, then what he sold
                  shall remain in the hand of him who
                  bought it until the year of jubilee; in the
                  jubilee it shall be released, and he shall
                  return to his property. 29 "If a man sells a
                  dwelling house in a walled city, he may
                  redeem it within a whole year after its
                  sale; for a full year he shall have the right
                  of redemption. 30 If it is not redeemed
                  within a full year, then the house that is in
                  the walled city shall be made sure in
                  perpetuity to him who bought it,
                  throughout his generations; it shall not be
                  released in the jubilee. 31 But the houses
                  of the villages which have no wall around
                  them shall be reckoned with the fields of
                  the country; they may be redeemed, and
                  they shall be released in the jubilee. 32
                  Nevertheless the cities of the Levites, the
                  houses in the cities of their possession,
                  the Levites may redeem at any time. 33
                  And if one of the Levites does not
                  exercise his right of redemption, then the
                  house that was sold in a city of their
                  possession shall be released in the
                  jubilee; for the houses in the cities of the
                  Levites are their possession among the
                  people of Israel. 34 But the fields of
                  common land belonging to their cities
                  may not be sold; for that is their perpetual
                  possession.

                  RSV Leviticus 25:40 he shall be with you
                  as a hired servant and as a sojourner. He
                  shall serve with you until the year of the
                  jubilee; 41 then he shall go out from you,
                  he and his children with him, and go back
                  to his own family, and return to the
                  possession of his fathers. 42 For they are
                  my servants, whom I brought forth out of
                  the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold
                  as slaves.

                  RSV Leviticus 25:47 "If a stranger or
                  sojourner with you becomes rich, and
                  your brother beside him becomes poor
                  and sells himself to the stranger or
                  sojourner with you, or to a member of the
                  stranger's family, 48 then after he is sold
                  he may be redeemed; one of his brothers
                  may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his
                  cousin may redeem him, or a near
                  kinsman belonging to his family may
                  redeem him; or if he grows rich he may
                  redeem himself. 50 He shall reckon with
                  him who bought him from the year when
                  he sold himself to him until the year of
                  jubilee, and the price of his release shall
                  be according to the number of years; the
                  time he was with his owner shall be rated
                  as the time of a hired servant. 51 If there
                  are still many years, according to them
                  he shall refund out of the price paid for
                  him the price for his redemption. 52 If
                  there remain but a few years until the
                  year of jubilee, he shall make a reckoning
                  with him; according to the years of
                  service due from him he shall refund the
                  money for his redemption. 53 As a
                  servant hired year by year shall he be
                  with him; he shall not rule with harshness
                  over him in your sight. 54 And if he is not
                  redeemed by these means, then he shall
                  be released in the year of jubilee, he and
                  his children with him. 55 For to me the
                  people of Israel are servants, they are my
                  servants whom I brought forth out of the
                  land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

                  Regards,

                  Dave Hindley
                  Cleveland, OH


                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                  To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                • Liz Fried
                  ... To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 3, 1999
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: dhindley@...


                    > The way I understand it is as follows:
                    >
                    > 01,02,03,...48,49,50
                    > 01,02,03,...48,49,50
                    > 01,02,03, etc.
                    >
                    > This means each jubilee year is celebrated in the first year of
                    > the next jubilee.
                    At least the way it appears above, that's not the way you've drawn it.
                    I think that the book of Juiblees assumed a 49 year cycle. I think that
                    somewhere near the end of the Persian period the Jubilee was dropped as a
                    second fallow year. I think in Jubilees the seventh sabbatical year is the
                    Jubilee year. I figured out that the sabbatical years in Maccabees only
                    made sense if you assume the Jubilee year was dropped near the end of the
                    Persian period. If you assume that, then the sabbatical years in Maccabees
                    fit in with the sabbatical and juiblee years I had determined for the
                    Monarchic period.

                    >
                    > RSV Leviticus 25:8 "And you shall count
                    > seven weeks of years, seven times seven
                    > years, so that the time of the seven
                    > weeks of years shall be to you forty-nine
                    > years.
                    That is, forty-nine complete years.

                    9 Then
                    *after* the completion of the 49th year.

                    you shall send abroad the
                    > loud trumpet on the tenth day of the
                    > seventh month; on the day of atonement
                    > you shall send abroad the trumpet
                    > throughout all your land.
                    Although it says the seventh month to conform to
                    the Babylonian calendar,
                    the Jewish New Year was in the fall, the first day of the 7th
                    month was the first day of the year.
                    The 10th day of the seventh month signalled the
                    end of the New Year's festivities, and the beginning of the next year.


                    10 And you shall
                    > hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
                    > liberty throughout the land to all its
                    > inhabitants;
                    This is proclaimed at the *beginning* of the 50th year.

                    it shall be a jubilee for you,
                    > when each of you shall return to his
                    > property and each of you shall return to
                    > his family.
                    Complete manumission of all the slaves,
                    no matter how long each has worked for you.

                    11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth
                    > year be to you; in it you shall neither
                    > sow, nor reap what grows of itself, nor
                    > gather the grapes from the undressed
                    > vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be
                    > holy to you; you shall eat what it yields
                    > out of the field. 13 "In this year of jubilee
                    > each of you shall return to his property.

                    Everyone returns to the status quo ante.
                    >
                    Liz
                    Lisbeth S. Fried
                    Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
                    New York University
                    51 Washington Sq. S.
                    New York, NY 10012
                    lqf9256@...
                    lizfried@...


                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                    To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                  • Michael T. MacDonell
                    Dear All:Is there a searchable archive up and running? If so, does it include the old Crosstalk postings? If not, how can they be accessed.Sorry to be
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 4, 1999
                      Dear All:

                      Is there a searchable archive up and running? If so, does it include the
                      old Crosstalk postings? If not, how can they be accessed.

                      Sorry to be dense, this has probably been discussed already.

                      Best Regards,
                      Mike MacDonell
                      ____________________________


                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                      To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      To contact list managers, e-mail us at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.