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[XTalk] Re: Re:Jubilee

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  • Jim West
    At 12:16 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:The article in Bible Review, February, 1999 by Michael Hudson ( Proclaim Liberty throughout the Land! ) argues that it
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
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      At 12:16 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

      >The article in Bible Review, February, 1999 by Michael Hudson ("Proclaim
      >Liberty throughout the Land!") argues that it was indeed celebrated on
      >certain occasions, and was common throughout the Near East.

      Commonality of practice in literary sources does not mean, necessarily, that
      the jubilee was actually practiced in fact. As a literary trope it sounds
      wonderfully nice to say that so and so cancelled debt. But getting actual
      creditors to agree, wholesale, to forgive every debt owed them would put
      them out of business. It simply makes no practical sense. Do we have any
      evidence, textual or otherwise, from a debtor saying his creditor forgave him?

      >The Rosetta
      >stone, for example, commemorates a debt cancellation by Ptolemy V in 196 BCE.

      But did he actually do it? Or is the function of the claim in the rosetta
      stone simply a way of exalting Ptolemy?

      >He traces its usage to Sumerian; Liz has traced it back to Akkadian. Hudson
      >reviews Assyrian use of *andurarum* and notes its possible connection to
      >Hebrew *deror* in Leviticus 25, as noted on this list by Liz. However, unlike
      >Liz, Hudson connects the practice not to any regular cycle, but to the
      >inauguration of a new reign-- which also has interesting echoes in the
      >present discussion.

      Indeed it does. But again, what better way to exalt a new monarch then to
      say, "he issued an edict requiring the forgiveness of debts". especially
      when he is long dead and no one can prove or disprove the claim.
      Politicians and their mouthpieces of all ages (past and present) are capable
      of saying things that are not true.

      >Hudson takes the interesting tack of noting failures to
      >proclaim the jubilee when it would otherwise have been expected, and the
      >problems that ensued.

      Problems? What sources, from debtors, does he have to suggest there were
      problems if they didn't have legitimate debts erased?

      >
      >According to Hudson, the first debt-cancellation Jubilee proclaimed in Israel
      >was that of Zedekiah (Jeremiah 34:8). Another was recorded in Nehemiah
      >5:7-12.

      Hmmm.... why would anyone want to say something so grand about Zedekiah?
      And why would Nehemiah want to paint such a pretty picture of life in the
      desolate land???? Could it be that he wants folk to move there- and hey, if
      ya do, we practice the year of release and forgiveness of debt. (oops- we
      cant do it this year, economic needs are too pressing!!).

      In other words, I dont think we should confuse a literary device for
      reality. Any more than we accept a literal 6 days of creation (a literary
      device) for reality (or pick your biblical metaphor).

      Likwise, in Luke, the whole function of the Lukan "to proclaim the Lord's
      year of release..." etc. is CLEARLY a literary device intended to exalt the
      new messiah's reign. But, likewise, it is equally clear that Jesus never
      did command that debtors cancel their debts (in anything more than a
      metaphorical way, in reference to the forgiveness of sin!!!!!). Nor do we
      have a shred of evidence that anyone in the day of Jesus ever practiced this
      debt forgiveness.

      best,

      Jim

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Jim West, ThD
      email- jwest@...
      web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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    • James R. Davila
      Jim West wrote: Commonality of practice in literary sources does not mean, necessarily, that the jubilee was actually practiced in fact. As a literary trope
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
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        Jim West wrote:
        >Commonality of practice in literary sources does not mean, necessarily, that
        >the jubilee was actually practiced in fact. As a literary trope it sounds
        >wonderfully nice to say that so and so cancelled debt. But getting actual
        >creditors to agree, wholesale, to forgive every debt owed them would put
        >them out of business. It simply makes no practical sense. Do we have any
        >evidence, textual or otherwise, from a debtor saying his creditor forgave him?

        Jim,

        This point is always good to keep in mind, but there is lots of evidence
        that the Sabbatical year was kept by Jews from the Hellenistic period until
        at least the high middle ages. Besides Josephus and 1 Maccabees, there are
        Judean Desert legal texts which date themselves in the Sabbatical year,
        sometimes cross-dating with another system to give us an exact date. The
        prosbul was set up to mitigate the impact of this institution. And some of
        the Cairo Geniza Kettubot of the 9th and 10th centuries are dated in
        Sabbatical years. I don't know of any legal or economic texts which
        mention the Jubilee explicitly, but it would be odd to hold onto the
        Sabbatical year and try to get away with neglecting its culmination,
        wouldn't it? The following article discusses some (not all) of the
        evidence I mentioned above:

        Ben Zion Wacholder, "The Calendar of Sabbatical Cycles during the Second
        Temple and Early Rabbinic Period," HUCA 44 (1973) 153-96

        Jim Davila
        University of St. Andrews
        Scotland
        jrd4@...



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      • Liz Fried
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        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Jim West [mailto:jwest@...]

          > Commonality of practice in literary sources does not mean,
          > necessarily, that
          > the jubilee was actually practiced in fact. As a literary trope it sounds
          > wonderfully nice to say that so and so cancelled debt. But getting actual
          > creditors to agree, wholesale, to forgive every debt owed them would put
          > them out of business. It simply makes no practical sense. Do we have any
          > evidence, textual or otherwise, from a debtor saying his creditor
          > forgave him?
          We don't have these unfortunately because when the debt was forgiven the
          tablet was broken. We do have the royal edicts from Babylonia which remit
          debts, and which decree that property must be returned to the original
          owner.
          These usually occurred at the accession of a new king, but also at other
          times. In my opinion, they were decreed by the king to prevent the rise of
          a powerful landed aristrocracy which might compete with him for power.
          Although we don't have the tablets acknowledging a forgiveness of debts, we
          do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not* revert back
          to the original owner in the event of an anduarum. It is these, not the
          decrees, which convince us that it was a real occurrence in Mesopotamia.

          Scholars believe it did not occur in Israel because according to Leviticus
          these were to occur regularly, every 50 years. Scholars argue that if you
          would not lend money, or sell property if the anduarum approached. I think
          actually that was a real problem, but they probably handled it the same way
          the Babylonians did, made the sale permanent regardless of the approaching
          time of the deror.

          The tenth year of Zedekiah can be dated to 588-587. During this year there
          was a general manumission of (Hebrew) slaves (albeit rescinded). During this
          year Jeremiah redeemed his cousin's land. Fifty years later, exactly,
          Isaiah announces the return of Jews to their homeland in language of the
          deror. 100 years prior to Zedekiah's tenth year, 688-687, would also have
          been a Jubilee year, and the year before that a sabbatical year. Those who
          suggest a second campaign of Sennacherib to Judah put it to 689-688, the
          sabbatical year preceding the Jubilee year. In Isaiah 37:30=2 Kings 19:29
          we read what Isaiah says to Hezekiah during a siege by Sennacherib: "This
          shall be for you the sign: Eat this year the saPiaH, and in the second year
          the saHis, in the third year plant and harvest." The word saPiaH is used
          only one other time in the HB, in Lev. 25:5. It is what springs up by itself
          from kernels accidently spilled during harvest the year before. The word
          saHis does not occur elsewhere, but its meaning is obvious. It seems Isaiah
          iis telling Hezekiah to keep two falow years in a row.
          It all may be simply coincidences, but it is suggestive, it seems to me. It
          also makes sense that a siege by Sennacherib and a siege by Nebuchadnezzar
          would both be during the time when there would be two fallow years in a row,
          a sabbatical followed by a jubilee. Indeed, the extreme vulnerability of
          the people during this time is one reason to forego the jubilee year.

          Liz
          Lisbeth S. Fried
          Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
          New York University
          51 Washington Sq. S.
          New York, NY 10012
          lqf9256@...
          lizfried@...


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        • Jim West
          At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote: we do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not* revert back to the original owner in the event of an
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
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            At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
            we
            >do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not* revert back
            >to the original owner in the event of an anduarum.

            It is the little phrase "in the event of" which tells me that the event is
            not at all certain...

            My life insurance will not pay "in the event" that I take my own life.

            >It is these, not the
            >decrees, which convince us that it was a real occurrence in Mesopotamia.

            But the problem, as I see it, and I probably wont say any more about it, is
            that the event may never have arisen- making the whole concept mere paper
            legislation.

            >
            >The tenth year of Zedekiah can be dated to 588-587. During this year there
            >was a general manumission of (Hebrew) slaves (albeit rescinded).

            Indeed- and anything rescinded was, for all practical purposes, not done.

            >It all may be simply coincidences, but it is suggestive, it seems to me. It
            >also makes sense that a siege by Sennacherib and a siege by Nebuchadnezzar
            >would both be during the time when there would be two fallow years in a row,
            >a sabbatical followed by a jubilee. Indeed, the extreme vulnerability of
            >the people during this time is one reason to forego the jubilee year.

            hmmm..... now one must wonder if the writers havent calculated as cleverly
            as you have and made the chronology fit for another reason. Anyway- we are
            now pretty far afield from the historical Jesus... so I will desist. I look
            forward to seeing the whole of your excursus in the Leviticus volume.
            I hope you will convince me. I want to be convinced that the poor people
            would actually experience such kindness--- I just dont think they did, do,
            or ever will.


            Best,

            Jim

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++
            Jim West, ThD
            email- jwest@...
            web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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          • Liz Fried
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            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 1, 1999
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Jim West [mailto:jwest@...]

              >
              > At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
              > we
              > >do have plenty of tablets which state that this sale will *not*
              > revert back
              > >to the original owner in the event of an anduarum.
              >
              > It is the little phrase "in the event of" which tells me that the event is
              > not at all certain...
              The events were certain, but they were not predictable. They occurred, and
              had to be planned for. When was another story.

              > My life insurance will not pay "in the event" that I take my own life.
              Which proves that people do, occasionally, and umpredictably take their own
              lives.

              > >
              > >The tenth year of Zedekiah can be dated to 588-587. During this
              > year there
              > >was a general manumission of (Hebrew) slaves (albeit rescinded).
              >
              > Indeed- and anything rescinded was, for all practical purposes, not done.
              Yes, certainly, but it seems they thought they *ought* to do it, and in this
              particular year. That is the point.

              >
              > I want to be convinced that the poor people
              > would actually experience such kindness--- I just dont think they did, do,
              > or ever will.
              My point is that it is not a kindness to the poor and wasn't intended to be.
              It was a kindness to the king, imo, because he could use it to keep the
              aristocracy at bay. It was the slaves of the aristocracy he freed, and the
              land of those who added "house to house and field to field" he took. It was
              always to cement the power of the king.


              Best,
              Liz

              Lisbeth S. Fried
              Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
              New York University
              51 Washington Sq. S.
              New York, NY 10012
              lqf9256@...
              lizfried@...



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            • Bernard Muller
              Liz Fried wrote:If so, then 33-35 is a sabbatical-jubilee yearLiz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March. What would be the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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                Liz Fried wrote:
                >

                > If so, then 33-35 is a sabbatical-jubilee year

                Liz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March. What
                would be the Sabbatical year, 33-34 or 34-35?

                What would be the preceding Sabbatical year and, let's say, the next
                three ones? What would be the next Jubilee year?

                >
                > We don't need to count Sabbatical years in Jesus' time from the jubilees of
                > the monarchal period. We have the sabbatical years of Maccabees. We need to
                > count from then.

                What are your references on sabbatical years in Maccabees? Do you have
                references in Maccabees of Jubilee years too? Where?

                Bernard
                http://www.concentric.net/~Mullerb/

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              • Liz Fried
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                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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                  > From: Bernard Muller

                  >
                  > Liz Fried wrote:

                  >
                  > Liz, you must be talking about Jewish years from March to March.
                  I'm talking about Jewish years, September to September.

                  What
                  > would be the Sabbatical year, 33-34 or 34-35?
                  Assuming CE, the sabbatical year would be fall 33 to fall 34.



                  >
                  > What would be the preceding Sabbatical year and, let's say, the next
                  > three ones? What would be the next Jubilee year?
                  I remember writing these all down, year by year, and counting them out.
                  I'll let someone else do it now.

                  > >
                  > > We don't need to count Sabbatical years in Jesus' time from the
                  > jubilees of
                  > > the monarchal period. We have the sabbatical years of
                  > Maccabees. We need to
                  > > count from then.
                  >
                  > What are your references on sabbatical years in Maccabees? Do you have
                  > references in Maccabees of Jubilee years too? Where?
                  This was worked out nicely by Lester Grabbe, in JBL about 5 years ago I
                  think.
                  If I have time I'll try to get out the article and see what his dates are.

                  Best,

                  Liz

                  Lisbeth S. Fried
                  Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
                  New York University
                  51 Washington Sq. S.
                  New York, NY 10012
                  lqf9256@...
                  lizfried@...


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                • Basil Lourie
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                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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                    > I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year
                    > (i.e., the
                    > year after the seventh sabbatical year), and hence occurs every
                    > 49 years.
                    I don't understand this statement. It is the 50th year. The counting begins
                    the year after the Jubilee year. That is year one. Seven periods of seven
                    make 49 years after the last Jubilee year. The next year is the 50th year
                    after the last Jubilee year. The 50th year is not counted in the cycle.
                    There are 49 years between every jubilee year.


                    The situation may be even worse: *both* countings are possible. I would like
                    to know more precisely about the source re: each kind of procedure. In the
                    Temple Scroll and some other sources (incl. Christian Ethiopic ones) there
                    is certainly a procedure of counting of "Jubilees" of Sabbaths where every
                    50th Sabbath is counted twice, that is, there is no Sabbath (week) which is
                    not counted in the cycle. This counting of weeks must be (I think, without
                    assurance) of the same mode as that of years in the respective communities.
                    Beckwith ("The Year of Messiah") is pressuposing 49-year Jubilees in the Bk
                    of Jubilees. Dealing with some early Christian calendars I found also 50-day
                    "Jubilee of weeks" sometimes likely. However, I have never seen a special
                    study on the different possibilities in counting of Jubilees.

                    Basil Lourie
                    revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
                    St. Petersburg, Russia


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                  • dhindley@compuserve.com
                    Basil Lourie wrote:I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year (i.e., the year after the seventh sabbatical year), and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 2, 1999
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                      Basil Lourie wrote:

                      > > I was under the impression that the Jubilee year is the 50th year
                      > > (i.e., the
                      > > year after the seventh sabbatical year), and hence occurs every
                      > > 49 years.
                      >
                      > I don't understand this statement. It is the 50th year. The counting begins
                      > the year after the Jubilee year. That is year one. Seven periods of seven
                      > make 49 years after the last Jubilee year. The next year is the 50th year
                      > after the last Jubilee year. The 50th year is not counted in the cycle.
                      > There are 49 years between every jubilee year.
                      >
                      >
                      > The situation may be even worse: *both* countings are possible. I would like
                      > to know more precisely about the source re: each kind of procedure. In the
                      > Temple Scroll and some other sources (incl. Christian Ethiopic ones) there
                      > is certainly a procedure of counting of "Jubilees" of Sabbaths where every
                      > 50th Sabbath is counted twice, that is, there is no Sabbath (week) which is
                      > not counted in the cycle. This counting of weeks must be (I think, without
                      > assurance) of the same mode as that of years in the respective communities.
                      > Beckwith ("The Year of Messiah") is pressuposing 49-year Jubilees in the Bk
                      > of Jubilees. Dealing with some early Christian calendars I found also 50-day
                      > "Jubilee of weeks" sometimes likely. However, I have never seen a special
                      > study on the different possibilities in counting of Jubilees.

                      Archbishop Ussher thought that they marked 50 year periods. The Book of Jubilees (at least in the Ethiopic rescension and probably in the DSS) thinks of them as 49 year periods, and has little to say about the 50th year.

                      The way I understand it is as follows:

                      01,02,03,...48,49,50
                      01,02,03,...48,49,50
                      01,02,03, etc.

                      This means each jubilee year is celebrated in the first year of the next jubilee.

                      RSV Leviticus 25:8 "And you shall count
                      seven weeks of years, seven times seven
                      years, so that the time of the seven
                      weeks of years shall be to you forty-nine
                      years. 9 Then you shall send abroad the
                      loud trumpet on the tenth day of the
                      seventh month; on the day of atonement
                      you shall send abroad the trumpet
                      throughout all your land. 10 And you shall
                      hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
                      liberty throughout the land to all its
                      inhabitants; it shall be a jubilee for you,
                      when each of you shall return to his
                      property and each of you shall return to
                      his family. 11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth
                      year be to you; in it you shall neither
                      sow, nor reap what grows of itself, nor
                      gather the grapes from the undressed
                      vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be
                      holy to you; you shall eat what it yields
                      out of the field. 13 "In this year of jubilee
                      each of you shall return to his property.
                      14 And if you sell to your neighbor or buy
                      from your neighbor, you shall not wrong
                      one another. 15 According to the number
                      of years after the jubilee, you shall buy
                      from your neighbor, and according to the
                      number of years for crops he shall sell to
                      you. 16 If the years are many you shall
                      increase the price, and if the years are
                      few you shall diminish the price, for it is
                      the number of the crops that he is selling
                      to you. 17 You shall not wrong one
                      another, but you shall fear your God; for I
                      am the LORD your God.

                      RSV Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be
                      sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine; for
                      you are strangers and sojourners with
                      me. 24 And in all the country you
                      possess, you shall grant a redemption of
                      the land. 25 "If your brother becomes
                      poor, and sells part of his property, then
                      his next of kin shall come and redeem
                      what his brother has sold. 26 If a man
                      has no one to redeem it, and then himself
                      becomes prosperous and finds sufficient
                      means to redeem it, 27 let him reckon
                      the years since he sold it and pay back
                      the overpayment to the man to whom he
                      sold it; and he shall return to his property.
                      28 But if he has not sufficient means to
                      get it back for himself, then what he sold
                      shall remain in the hand of him who
                      bought it until the year of jubilee; in the
                      jubilee it shall be released, and he shall
                      return to his property. 29 "If a man sells a
                      dwelling house in a walled city, he may
                      redeem it within a whole year after its
                      sale; for a full year he shall have the right
                      of redemption. 30 If it is not redeemed
                      within a full year, then the house that is in
                      the walled city shall be made sure in
                      perpetuity to him who bought it,
                      throughout his generations; it shall not be
                      released in the jubilee. 31 But the houses
                      of the villages which have no wall around
                      them shall be reckoned with the fields of
                      the country; they may be redeemed, and
                      they shall be released in the jubilee. 32
                      Nevertheless the cities of the Levites, the
                      houses in the cities of their possession,
                      the Levites may redeem at any time. 33
                      And if one of the Levites does not
                      exercise his right of redemption, then the
                      house that was sold in a city of their
                      possession shall be released in the
                      jubilee; for the houses in the cities of the
                      Levites are their possession among the
                      people of Israel. 34 But the fields of
                      common land belonging to their cities
                      may not be sold; for that is their perpetual
                      possession.

                      RSV Leviticus 25:40 he shall be with you
                      as a hired servant and as a sojourner. He
                      shall serve with you until the year of the
                      jubilee; 41 then he shall go out from you,
                      he and his children with him, and go back
                      to his own family, and return to the
                      possession of his fathers. 42 For they are
                      my servants, whom I brought forth out of
                      the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold
                      as slaves.

                      RSV Leviticus 25:47 "If a stranger or
                      sojourner with you becomes rich, and
                      your brother beside him becomes poor
                      and sells himself to the stranger or
                      sojourner with you, or to a member of the
                      stranger's family, 48 then after he is sold
                      he may be redeemed; one of his brothers
                      may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his
                      cousin may redeem him, or a near
                      kinsman belonging to his family may
                      redeem him; or if he grows rich he may
                      redeem himself. 50 He shall reckon with
                      him who bought him from the year when
                      he sold himself to him until the year of
                      jubilee, and the price of his release shall
                      be according to the number of years; the
                      time he was with his owner shall be rated
                      as the time of a hired servant. 51 If there
                      are still many years, according to them
                      he shall refund out of the price paid for
                      him the price for his redemption. 52 If
                      there remain but a few years until the
                      year of jubilee, he shall make a reckoning
                      with him; according to the years of
                      service due from him he shall refund the
                      money for his redemption. 53 As a
                      servant hired year by year shall he be
                      with him; he shall not rule with harshness
                      over him in your sight. 54 And if he is not
                      redeemed by these means, then he shall
                      be released in the year of jubilee, he and
                      his children with him. 55 For to me the
                      people of Israel are servants, they are my
                      servants whom I brought forth out of the
                      land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

                      Regards,

                      Dave Hindley
                      Cleveland, OH


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                    • Liz Fried
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                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 3, 1999
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                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: dhindley@...


                        > The way I understand it is as follows:
                        >
                        > 01,02,03,...48,49,50
                        > 01,02,03,...48,49,50
                        > 01,02,03, etc.
                        >
                        > This means each jubilee year is celebrated in the first year of
                        > the next jubilee.
                        At least the way it appears above, that's not the way you've drawn it.
                        I think that the book of Juiblees assumed a 49 year cycle. I think that
                        somewhere near the end of the Persian period the Jubilee was dropped as a
                        second fallow year. I think in Jubilees the seventh sabbatical year is the
                        Jubilee year. I figured out that the sabbatical years in Maccabees only
                        made sense if you assume the Jubilee year was dropped near the end of the
                        Persian period. If you assume that, then the sabbatical years in Maccabees
                        fit in with the sabbatical and juiblee years I had determined for the
                        Monarchic period.

                        >
                        > RSV Leviticus 25:8 "And you shall count
                        > seven weeks of years, seven times seven
                        > years, so that the time of the seven
                        > weeks of years shall be to you forty-nine
                        > years.
                        That is, forty-nine complete years.

                        9 Then
                        *after* the completion of the 49th year.

                        you shall send abroad the
                        > loud trumpet on the tenth day of the
                        > seventh month; on the day of atonement
                        > you shall send abroad the trumpet
                        > throughout all your land.
                        Although it says the seventh month to conform to
                        the Babylonian calendar,
                        the Jewish New Year was in the fall, the first day of the 7th
                        month was the first day of the year.
                        The 10th day of the seventh month signalled the
                        end of the New Year's festivities, and the beginning of the next year.


                        10 And you shall
                        > hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
                        > liberty throughout the land to all its
                        > inhabitants;
                        This is proclaimed at the *beginning* of the 50th year.

                        it shall be a jubilee for you,
                        > when each of you shall return to his
                        > property and each of you shall return to
                        > his family.
                        Complete manumission of all the slaves,
                        no matter how long each has worked for you.

                        11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth
                        > year be to you; in it you shall neither
                        > sow, nor reap what grows of itself, nor
                        > gather the grapes from the undressed
                        > vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be
                        > holy to you; you shall eat what it yields
                        > out of the field. 13 "In this year of jubilee
                        > each of you shall return to his property.

                        Everyone returns to the status quo ante.
                        >
                        Liz
                        Lisbeth S. Fried
                        Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
                        New York University
                        51 Washington Sq. S.
                        New York, NY 10012
                        lqf9256@...
                        lizfried@...


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                      • Michael T. MacDonell
                        Dear All:Is there a searchable archive up and running? If so, does it include the old Crosstalk postings? If not, how can they be accessed.Sorry to be
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 4, 1999
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                          Dear All:

                          Is there a searchable archive up and running? If so, does it include the
                          old Crosstalk postings? If not, how can they be accessed.

                          Sorry to be dense, this has probably been discussed already.

                          Best Regards,
                          Mike MacDonell
                          ____________________________


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