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Re: [XTalk] Parable of the Sower

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  • John Lupia
    ... You somehow must have misunderstood what I wrote. Drs. Danin and Baruch happen to be the world s leading experts on Israeli botany. So, when they find
    Message 1 of 34 , Jul 1, 2001
      > LA:
      > Excuse me John. For some reason I get a little skeptical when people
      > start citing scientists speaking out on fields outside of those of their
      > own expertese, and are said to have reached "scientific conclusions"
      > that are "apodictic," and now, to have excluded other possibilities as
      > not just impossible, but "overwhemingly impossible."


      You somehow must have misunderstood what I wrote. Drs. Danin and Baruch
      happen to be the world's leading experts on Israeli botany. So, when they
      find conclusive evidence I for one do not presume I know more they do but
      instead I listen.


      >Speaking in terms
      > of such absolute certainty does not strike me as exactly scientific,
      > especially with reference to this topic.
      >
      > No, I have not read their reports on seed harvest and yields in
      > Palestine 2000 years ago. I'm sure that they are fascinating, and I can
      > hardly wait for the movie version. But, I fail to see how their
      > expertese in this area translates into an expertese that allows them to
      > pontificate on the "overwhelming impossibility" of contamination, either
      > primary or secondary, of the shroud by pilgrims who had been to the Holy
      > land. We don't even know where the shroud was for major periods of its
      > existence, let alone how isolated it was from such potential
      > contamination. How do we even *know* that someone didn't carry it to
      > Palestine itself at some time?
      > Leon
      >


      Well, Leon, the problem is you have not read their reports. Danin did not
      rely on Max Frei's tapes but took new fresh samples with palynological
      evidence of G.T. spores. First, this plant is very rare. It only grows in
      a small isolated area outside of Jersualem as it has for thousands of years.
      When I say it only grows there I mean it is the only place on earth where it
      grows. It is a rather unique signature to a small field that is isolated
      and where people do not go. Second, the image on the Shroud discernible and
      more easily observable in negatives clearly shows the G.T. stems and leaves
      like a photograph of the sternum area. Danin, says the image of the
      photo-like image of this plant on the Shroud cannot be explained as one
      might argue about the pollen by contamination at some period. Besides the
      statistical probability of contamination is virtually zero due to the rarity
      of the plant and its isolation even among the flora of Israel. How a
      medieval forger could have known all of this as well as produced this
      photo-like image of the plant on the chest's sternum area is something that
      precludes forgery.

      Peace in Christ,
      John
      <><


      John N. Lupia
      501 North Avenue B-1
      Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
      JLupia2@...
      <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
      "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
      . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
      they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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    • David C. Hindley
      ... seeds.
      Message 34 of 34 , Jul 2, 2001
        William said:

        >>I don't follow what is meant by a 2-5x return on planting grain
        seeds.<<

        In ancient times, and even recently in regions where subsistence
        (i.e., relatively unmechanized) farming is common, the yield is not
        represented as volume of grain but by the volume of grain returned
        divided by the volume of grain sown. If you sow a bushel of wheat
        (using modern US measure), you expect (maybe pray for) 5 bushels
        reaped. The yield seems to have varied between 4x and 6x, according to
        the Turkish study (circa 1950, and using relatively primitive farming
        techniques resembling that of 1st century Palestine) mentioned in an
        earlier post.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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