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[XTalk] Re: metanoia

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  • Liz Fried
    What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the phrase in Mark 1:4 metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn. (Forgive my botched
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 29, 1999
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      What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the
      phrase in Mark 1:4 "metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn." (Forgive my botched
      transliteration.) "repentance/shuvah for *release* of sin. The aphesin has
      sabbatical connotations.
      It is used in the LXX ffor liberty (dror) in Isaiah 61, and for release
      (dror) and jubilee (yovel) in Lev. 25:10,11.

      It is interesting to me the notion of being "released" / "liberated" from
      sin. It is odd to me applying the notion of the jubilee in this way.

      If we ignore the dating given by Luke then there is of course a sabbatical
      year in the 10 years of Pilate's tenure; no jubilee year tho.

      Best,
      Liz

      >
      Lisbeth S. Fried
      Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
      New York University
      51 Washington Sq. S.
      New York, NY 10012
      lqf9256@...
      lizfried@...


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    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      Liz Fried wrote:What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the phrase in Mark 1:4 metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn.
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 29, 1999
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        Liz Fried wrote:

        > What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the
        > phrase in Mark 1:4 "metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn." (Forgive my botched
        > transliteration.) "repentance/shuvah for *release* of sin. The aphesin has
        > sabbatical connotations.
        > It is used in the LXX ffor liberty (dror) in Isaiah 61, and for release
        > (dror) and jubilee (yovel) in Lev. 25:10,11.
        >
        > It is interesting to me the notion of being "released" / "liberated" from
        > sin. It is odd to me applying the notion of the jubilee in this way.
        >
        > If we ignore the dating given by Luke then there is of course a sabbatical
        > year in the 10 years of Pilate's tenure; no jubilee year tho.
        >

        You might wish to compare your speculations here with the thesis of Tom Wright
        in his _Jesus and the Victory of God__ that what was being announced by JB and
        Jesus was the end of Israel in Exile.

        Yours,

        Jeffrey


        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson
        7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
        Chicago, Illinois 60626
        e-mail jgibson000@...



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      • Brian Waddington
        Liz Fried wrote: What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the phrase in Mark 1:4 metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn.
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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          Liz Fried wrote:
          >
          > What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the
          > phrase in Mark 1:4 "metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn." (Forgive my botched
          > transliteration.) "repentance/shuvah for *release* of sin. The aphesin has
          > sabbatical connotations.
          >
          Hi Liz, I do not have access to my commentaries right now but is the
          term found in Mark 1:4 the same term as is found in Mark 1:15? I ask
          this simply because as I stated earlier, for me, Mark has Jesus
          proclaiming the Jubilee / Sabbatical in Mark 1:15.

          >
          > It is interesting to me the notion of being "released" / "liberated" from
          > sin. It is odd to me applying the notion of the jubilee in this way.
          >

          As I also stated earlier I am a retired pastor and that has undoubtedly
          coloured my understanding of scripture. But to me it seems perfectly
          natural to connect release and or liberation from sin to the concept of
          Jubilee / Sabbatical. As I understand it, one of the ongoing debates to
          be found in the Hebrew Scriptures is the relationship between sinning in
          this world and suffering in this world. The most prominent example of
          the debate being the Book of Job. Depending upon which side of the
          argument one comes down on would it not make sense to see those people
          most in need of forgiveness of debt as those most in need of forgiveness
          of sins? If this is the case could not the proclaiming of the Jubilee /
          Sabbatical by either John or Jesus be seen as 'Good News' not
          necassarily for the hunger and the hardship that may have resulted from
          leaving the fields fallow but from the forgiveness of sins that was (at
          least im my understanding) an integral part of the Jubilee / Sabbatical?

          Brian

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        • Jim West
          At 12:07 AM 6/30/99 -0400, you wrote: What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the phrase in Mark 1:4 metanoias eis
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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            At 12:07 AM 6/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
            >
            >What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical year was the
            >phrase in Mark 1:4 "metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn." (Forgive my botched
            >transliteration.) "repentance/shuvah for *release* of sin. The aphesin has
            >sabbatical connotations.

            You may be reading the preposition incorrectly... properly eis here should
            be rendered "resulting in" rather than "for". Change of course results in
            forgiveness of sin. This, I think, really has little or nothing to do with
            jubilee or the like.

            >It is used in the LXX ffor liberty (dror) in Isaiah 61, and for release
            >(dror) and jubilee (yovel) in Lev. 25:10,11.

            It is also used for "divorce".

            >
            >It is interesting to me the notion of being "released" / "liberated" from
            >sin. It is odd to me applying the notion of the jubilee in this way.

            You are right to think it odd. Jubilee was an economic "holiday" which, so
            far as we know, was never actually practiced! Are there any OT texts which
            describe its actual use? I know it is described, but is it ever DONE? I
            dont think so.

            >If we ignore the dating given by Luke then there is of course a sabbatical
            >year in the 10 years of Pilate's tenure; no jubilee year tho.

            In any event, since there is no evidence that Jubilee was ever celebrated,
            it really doesn't matter.


            Best,

            Jim

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++
            Jim West, ThD
            email- jwest@...
            web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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          • Liz Fried
            From: Brian Waddington [mailto:mljb@home.com]Hi Liz, I do not have access to my commentaries right now but is the term found in Mark 1:4 the same term as
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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              From: Brian Waddington [mailto:mljb@...]

              > Hi Liz, I do not have access to my commentaries right now but is the
              > term found in Mark 1:4 the same term as is found in Mark 1:15? I ask
              > this simply because as I stated earlier, for me, Mark has Jesus
              > proclaiming the Jubilee / Sabbatical in Mark 1:15.

              It has metanoia, but not aphesin. For me aphesin was the interesting word,
              not metanoia.
              >
              > >
              > > It is interesting to me the notion of being "released" /
              > "liberated" from
              > > sin. It is odd to me applying the notion of the jubilee in this way.
              > >
              >
              > As I also stated earlier I am a retired pastor and that has undoubtedly
              > coloured my understanding of scripture. But to me it seems perfectly
              > natural to connect release and or liberation from sin to the concept of
              > Jubilee / Sabbatical.
              There's no connection. As Jim points out in a later post, the jubilee and
              sabbatical years were for the purpose of returning everything to the status
              quo ante. Slaves were released, people were returned to their ancestral
              land. (There were some exceptions.) It was practiced intermittently for long
              periods of time in Mesopotamia. IT is certainly not unique to Israel. The
              word dror, release, liberty, is from the Akkadian anduarum. This practice of
              the anduarum predated Israel by millennia. We have contracts from
              Mesopotamia which read, "I sell you this orchard, and I agree it will not be
              returned to me in the next anduarum. It is yours for ever." The question is
              who benefitted from these anduaru? I don't think it was the poor.


              As I understand it, one of the ongoing debates to
              > be found in the Hebrew Scriptures is the relationship between sinning in
              > this world and suffering in this world. The most prominent example of
              > the debate being the Book of Job. Depending upon which side of the
              > argument one comes down on would it not make sense to see those people
              > most in need of forgiveness of debt as those most in need of forgiveness
              > of sins?
              I think bodily illness was associated with sin. This is illustrated with the
              story of Miriam, who contracts leprosy for speaking ill of Moses. This is
              the debate in Job, as you point out. This is also the case in the NT. Jesus
              forgives sins and people are cured of their diseases. He cures people of
              their diseases, and tells them to sin no more. I know of no instance where
              poverty or debts is assoiciated with sin. Jesus never cures anyone of
              poverty, or tells them to go and be poor no more. Povrerty or debts was not
              regarded as evidence of sin, only disease and death.

              If this is the case could not the proclaiming of the Jubilee /
              > Sabbatical by either John or Jesus be seen as 'Good News' not
              > necassarily for the hunger and the hardship that may have resulted from
              > leaving the fields fallow but from the forgiveness of sins that was (at
              > least im my understanding) an integral part of the Jubilee / Sabbatical?
              Forgiveness of debts is part of the Sabbatical and Juibliee years. Never
              forgiveness of sins. Why do you associate forgiveness of sins with the
              sabbatical and jubilee years? Is it just from this NT usage of aphesin?

              Best,
              Liz
              Lisbeth S. Fried
              Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
              New York University
              51 Washington Sq. S.
              New York, NY 10012
              lqf9256@...
              lizfried@...


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            • Liz Fried
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              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim West [mailto:jwest@...]

                > >What suggested to me the possibility of a jubilee or sabbatical
                > year was the
                > >phrase in Mark 1:4 "metanoias eis aphesin amartiwn." (Forgive my botched
                > >transliteration.) "repentance/shuvah for *release* of sin. The
                > aphesin has
                > >sabbatical connotations.
                >
                > You may be reading the preposition incorrectly... properly eis
                > here should
                > be rendered "resulting in" rather than "for". Change of course results in
                > forgiveness of sin. This, I think, really has little or nothing
                > to do with
                > jubilee or the like.
                I was reading this passage with Frank E Peters at NYU and he said that eis
                here means "for the purpose of." I have a note to that effect in the margin
                of my NT. If the repentence has the effect of releasing someone for sin, so
                why not for the purpose of doing so?
                I agree it doesn't have anything to do with the Juibliee or Sabbatical year.
                I think it was a wild goose chase, albeit an interesting one.


                >
                > >It is used in the LXX ffor liberty (dror) in Isaiah 61, and for release
                > >(dror) and jubilee (yovel) in Lev. 25:10,11.
                >
                > It is also used for "divorce".
                How apt.

                >
                > >
                > >It is interesting to me the notion of being "released" / "liberated" from
                > >sin. It is odd to me applying the notion of the jubilee in this way.
                >
                > You are right to think it odd. Jubilee was an economic "holiday"
                > which, so
                > far as we know, was never actually practiced! Are there any OT
                > texts which
                > describe its actual use? I know it is described, but is it ever DONE? I
                > dont think so.
                When the second vol. of AB Leviticus comes out, and *if* our article is in
                it, you can tell me then if I've changed your mind.

                >
                > >If we ignore the dating given by Luke then there is of course a
                > sabbatical
                > >year in the 10 years of Pilate's tenure; no jubilee year tho.
                >
                > In any event, since there is no evidence that Jubilee was ever celebrated,
                > it really doesn't matter.
                The sabbatical year was being kept, and it appears the word aphesin is used
                for both the sabbatical and the jubilee. This suggests the concept for the
                jubilee may have become entwined with the sabbatical. In any case, I think
                that Isaiah 61 is announcing the jubilee year, he uses the word dror. This
                language is used by Luke to convey something. The advent of the Christ
                ushers in a jubilee, whatever Luke meant by it.

                Liz


                Lisbeth S. Fried
                Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
                New York University
                51 Washington Sq. S.
                New York, NY 10012
                lqf9256@...
                lizfried@...



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              • James R. Covey
                Re message of 6/29/99 8:49 PM from Jeffrey B. Gibson:in Biblical literature the idea conveyed by METANOIA of changing course (or, more accurately, I
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                  Re message of 6/29/99 8:49 PM from Jeffrey B. Gibson:

                  >in Biblical literature the idea
                  >conveyed by METANOIA of "changing course" (or, more accurately, I think, "
                  >turning back") gains a greater nuance from, and can only be understood
                  >within,
                  >a particular context, namely, the covenantal theology of Deuteronomy and
                  >works associated with it. In other words, METANOIA is a covenant term.

                  surely not "METANOIA" itself, orginally, as the term is, well, Greek.

                  what's the slippage from the original Hebrew? is there one word,
                  or more, that is translated "METANOIA"?

                  James

                  -------------------------
                  James R. Covey
                  WWW Systems Developer
                  Cochran Interactive Inc.
                  http://www.cochran.com
                  direct ph. # 902.422.8915
                  office fax # 902.425.8659
                  jrcovey@...


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                • Jim West
                  At 12:39 PM 6/30/99 -0300, you wrote:surely not METANOIA itself, orginally, as the term is, well, Greek.true james. absolutely right. what s the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                    At 12:39 PM 6/30/99 -0300, you wrote:

                    >surely not "METANOIA" itself, orginally, as the term is, well, Greek.

                    true james. absolutely right.

                    >
                    >what's the slippage from the original Hebrew? is there one word,
                    >or more, that is translated "METANOIA"?]

                    generally the hebrew word rendered metanoia is shuv- which means to turn or
                    return. it does not really carry the notion of "repent" as most folk use
                    the word- it just means to turn back or change direction. it is used of
                    samuel when he hears the voice and is told by eli to "get back in bed".

                    best,

                    jim

                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                    Jim West, ThD
                    email- jwest@...
                    web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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                  • Jim West
                    At 11:52 AM 6/30/99 -0400, you wrote:generally the hebrew word rendered metanoia is shuv- which means to turn or return. it does not really carry the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                      At 11:52 AM 6/30/99 -0400, you wrote:

                      >generally the hebrew word rendered metanoia is shuv- which means to turn or
                      >return. it does not really carry the notion of "repent" as most folk use
                      >the word- it just means to turn back or change direction. it is used of
                      >samuel when he hears the voice and is told by eli to "get back in bed".

                      one more thought--- the verb nicham is sometimes translated repent, but it,
                      too, does not really carry this connotation. instead, it means somethin
                      akin to "desire things to be different".

                      repentance in a thoroughly NT idea. in the hebrew bible one changes
                      directions or wishes things were done differently. in the nt folk repent
                      (fell sorrow for their deeds and such). in other words, in the OT genuine
                      change of heart is demonstrated by a change of action whereas for most
                      christians repentance is just a feeling of sorrow which does not really have
                      to manifest intself in any concrete action.

                      j.
                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      Jim West, ThD
                      email- jwest@...
                      web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      James R. Covey wrote:Re message of 6/29/99 8:49 PM from Jeffrey B. Gibson: in Biblical literature the idea conveyed by METANOIA of changing
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                        "James R. Covey" wrote:

                        > Re message of 6/29/99 8:49 PM from Jeffrey B. Gibson:
                        >
                        > >in Biblical literature the idea
                        > >conveyed by METANOIA of "changing course" (or, more accurately, I think, "
                        > >turning back") gains a greater nuance from, and can only be understood
                        > >within,
                        > >a particular context, namely, the covenantal theology of Deuteronomy and
                        > >works associated with it. In other words, METANOIA is a covenant term.
                        >
                        > surely not "METANOIA" itself, orginally, as the term is, well, Greek.
                        >
                        > what's the slippage from the original Hebrew? is there one word,
                        > or more, that is translated "METANOIA"?
                        >
                        > James

                        Jim West has already noted what the Hebrew counterpart to METANOIA is. But when
                        discussing its "basic" meaning, he does not (as I think he should) point to how
                        frequently, and in an almost technical sense, the term and its cognate verb is
                        used by the OT Prophets in the context of their denunciations of national
                        apostasy and therefore often has the force of "to turn (back) to Yahweh *from
                        wayward ways* in total and faithful surrender to his covenant demands".

                        This, notably, is the meaning that the Greek term has in the Prophetic writings
                        of the LXX , and therefore among those whose scriptures were the Greek
                        version(s) of the Scriptures of Israel; so I'm not certain why you feel that
                        METANOIA does not mean what I claimed it meant in Biblical Literature, albeit
                        Greek Biblical and related literature. For Rabbinic usage of the Hebrew term,
                        see the appendix in Lane's Commentary on GMark.

                        Yours,

                        Jeffrey
                        --
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson
                        7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                        Chicago, Illinois 60626
                        e-mail jgibson000@...



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                      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                        Jim West wrote:one more thought--- the verb nicham is sometimes translated repent, but it, too, does not really carry this connotation. instead, it
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                          Jim West wrote:
                          one more thought--- the verb nicham is sometimes translated repent, but it,
                          too, does not really carry this connotation.  instead, it means somethin
                          akin to "desire things to be different".

                          repentance in a thoroughly NT idea.  in the hebrew bible one changes
                          directions or wishes things were done differently.  in the nt folk repent
                          (fell sorrow for their deeds and such).  in other words, in the OT genuine
                          change of heart is demonstrated by a change of action whereas for most
                          christians repentance is just a feeling of sorrow which does not really have
                          to manifest intself in any concrete action.
                           

                          Jim,

                          I know that the equation of "repent" with "feeling sorry" is something that occurs in modern Christianity, but can you provide any evidence that this "psychological" meaning is to be found in the NT?

                          Moreover, even if this is the case elsewhere in the NT (and in other Hellenistic literature? examples?), would you assert that "feeling sorry" is the meaning the term bears in Mk. 1:15? I find this difficult to accept, for as Guelich notes (Mark, 45), [referring to the article on METANOEW, METANOIA by E. Wurthwein in TDNT  4 (1967)]

                          the setting of the call to repentance within a proclamation context (cf. KHRUSSEIN---1:4, 14-15; 6:12) suggests that "repent" (METANOIEN)   most likely carries the OT prophetic import of sub, meaning "to go back again", "return" and connotes the prophetic call to "turn to Yahweh with all one's being". Much more is at stake that the more literal "changing of one's mind," "regret", or "sorrow".
                          Yours,

                          Jeffrey
                          --
                          Jeffrey B. Gibson
                          7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                          Chicago, Illinois 60626
                          e-mail jgibson000@...
                           


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                        • Jim West
                          At 11:57 AM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:I know that the equation of repent with feeling sorry is something that occurs in modern Christianity, but can you
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                            At 11:57 AM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

                            >I know that the equation of "repent" with "feeling sorry" is something that
                            >occurs in modern Christianity, but can you provide any evidence that this
                            >"psychological" meaning is to be found in the NT?

                            sorry- I should have been more clear. Modern christians take the NT word to
                            mean some sort of sorrowful feeling. They, to be sure, misunderstand the
                            term, but it is more frequent then not the understanding of most pew-sitters.
                            (I know of this by personal experience by the way) :-)

                            >
                            >Moreover, even if this is the case elsewhere in the NT (and in other
                            Hellenistic
                            >literature? examples?), would you assert that "feeling sorry" is the
                            meaning the
                            >term bears in Mk. 1:15? I find this difficult to accept, for as Guelich notes
                            >(Mark, 45), [referring to the article on METANOEW, METANOIA by E. Wurthwein in
                            >TDNT 4 (1967)]

                            No- again- the NT meaning has been corrupted.


                            Best,

                            Jim

                            +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            Jim West, ThD
                            email- jwest@...
                            web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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                          • Basil Lourie
                            SNIP in other words, in the OT genuine change of heart is demonstrated by a change of action whereas for most christians repentance is just a feeling of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                              SNIP in other words, in the OT genuine
                              >change of heart is demonstrated by a change of action whereas for most
                              >christians repentance is just a feeling of sorrow which does not really
                              have
                              >to manifest intself in any concrete action.
                              >
                              >j.
                              >+++++++++++++++++++++++++
                              >Jim West, ThD

                              I have been always told and I have read many times in the ascetic Fathers
                              that the true sign of the repentance accomplished is only the changement of
                              the way of life, that is, not to sin (at least, in the same way) anymore...
                              Is here a case where different confessional backgrounds are affecting the
                              scholarship? :) More seriously, I have checked BibleWork for *metanoO* etc.
                              and found the following interesting notice on the Hebrew root *nxm* (it is
                              from TWOT Heb Lex). I past it after my signature to avoid undersigning of
                              others' texts by my own name (for this action may be itself worth of an act
                              of *metanoia*...).

                              Basil Lourie
                              revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
                              St. Petersburg, Russia
                              ______________________________________
                              *nxm* The origin of the
                              root seems to reflect the idea of
                              "breathing deeply," hence the physical
                              display of one's , feelings, usually
                              sorrow, compassion, or comfort. The
                              root occurs in Ugaritic (see "to console"
                              in UT , 19: no. 1230) and is found in OT
                              proper names such as Nehemiah,
                              Nahum, and Menehem. The LXX ,
                              renders nµm by both metanoeo and
                              metamelomai. , , The KJV translates
                              the Niphal of nµm "repent" thirty-eight
                              times. The majority of these instances
                              refer , to God's repentance, not man's.
                              The word most frequently employed to
                              indicate man's repentance is , sh?b (q,
                              v.), meaning "to turn" (from sin to God).
                              Unlike man, who under the conviction of
                              sin feels , genuine remorse and sorrow,
                              God is free from sin. Yet the Scriptures
                              inform us that God repents (Gen , 6:6-7;
                              Exo 32:14; Jud 2:18; 1Sam 15:11 et al.),
                              i.e. he relents or changes his dealings
                              with men , according to his sovereign
                              purposes. On the surface, such language
                              seems inconsistent, if not ,
                              contradictory, with certain passages
                              which affirm God's immutability: "God is
                              not a man... that he , should repent"
                              (1Sam 15:29 contra v. 11); "The Lord
                              has sworn and will not change his mind"
                              (Psa , 110:4). When n?µam is used of
                              God, however, the expression is
                              anthropopathic and there is not , ultimate
                              tension. From man's limited, earthly,
                              finite perspective it only appears that
                              God's purposes have , changed. Thus the
                              OT states that God "repented" of the
                              judgments or "evil" which he had planned
                              to , carry out (1Chr 21:15; Jer 18:8; Jer
                              26:3, 19; Amos 7:3, 6; Jon 3:10).
                              Certainly Jer 18:7-10 is a striking ,
                              reminder that from God's perspective,
                              most prophecy (excluding messianic
                              predictions) is conditional , upon the
                              response of men. In this regard, A. J.
                              Heschel (Tije Prophets, p. 194) has said,
                              "No word is , God's final word.
                              Judgment, far from being absolute, is
                              conditional. A change in man's conduct
                              brings , about a change in God's
                              judgment." , , The second primary
                              meaning of n?µam is "to comfort" (Piel)
                              or "to be comforted" (Niphal, Pual, and ,
                              Hithpael). This Hebrew word was well
                              known to every pious Jew living in exile
                              as he recalled the , opening words of
                              Isaiah's "Book of Consolation, " naµ¦m?
                              naµ¦m? `amm? "Comfort ye, comfort
                              ye , my people" (Isa 40:1). The same
                              word occurs in Psa 23:4, where David
                              says of his heavenly Shepherd, , "Thy
                              rod and thy staff, they comfort me."
                              Many passages, however, deal with
                              being comforted for the , dead (2Sam
                              10:2; 1Chr 19:2; Isa 61:2; Jer 16:7; Jer
                              31:15). People were consoled for a death
                              of an , infant child (2Sam 12:24), teenage
                              son (Gen 37:35), mother (Gen 24:67),
                              wife (Gen 38:12) et al. A , mother might
                              comfort her child (Isa 66:13) but it is
                              God who comforts his people (Psa
                              71:21; Psa , 86:17; Psa 119:82; Isa 12:1;
                              Isa 49:13; Isa 52:9). God's "compassion
                              (niµ?m, a derivative of nhm) , grows
                              warm and tender" for Israel (Hos 11:8). ,
                              , Bibliography: Girdlestone, Robert B.,
                              Synonyms of the Old Testament,
                              Eerdmans, 1956, pp. 87-92. ,
                              Richardson, Alan, "Repent, " in A
                              Theological Word Book of the Bible, ed.
                              Alan Richardson, London: , SCM, 1957,
                              pp. 191-192. Turner, G. A.,
                              "Repentance, " in ZPEB, V, pp. 62-64.
                              Richardson, TWB, p. , 191. THAT, II,
                              pp. 59-65. M.R.W.






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                            • Brian Waddington
                              Hi again Liz, First let me thank you for continuing this thread with me, it is both enjoyable and educational.I know of no instance where poverty or
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 30, 1999
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                                Hi again Liz, First let me thank you for continuing this thread with me,
                                it is both enjoyable and educational.


                                I know of no instance where
                                > poverty or debts is assoiciated with sin. Jesus never cures anyone of
                                > poverty, or tells them to go and be poor no more. Povrerty or debts was not
                                > regarded as evidence of sin, only disease and death.

                                Saul was stripped of his kingship for disobeying G-ds commands as spoken
                                by / though Samuel. One of the first things that Job was stripped of was
                                his property and as I recall the story his 'friends' considered this
                                stripping away a sure sign that Job had sinned. Without going into proof
                                texting there are many psalms and proverbs that state that the righteous
                                will prosper and that the sinfull will loose everything. On a more
                                general note, as I understand the development of the Jewish faith there
                                was a time when there was a belief that all punishment and all blessings
                                came to a person in this life with wealth being a sign of blessedness
                                and poverty being a sign of punishmment. As for Jesus it is true that he
                                never cured anyone of poverty, although if the redistribution of land
                                and the freeing of slaves is seen as an attempt to eleviate poverty he
                                may well have attempted to create a society where inherited poverty or
                                wealth was eliminated. As well, if such statements as 'blessed are the
                                poor' and 'woe to you who are rich' are a close proxism of the teaching
                                of Jesus and this teaching was considered strange or new then it would
                                be fair to assume that in the time of Jesus wealth was seen as a
                                blessing from G-d and poverty as a curse and or punishment from G-d for
                                sin.

                                > Why do you associate forgiveness of sins with the
                                > sabbatical and jubilee years? Is it just from this NT usage of aphesin?
                                >
                                What follows borders on being 'preachy' it is not meant to be and so let
                                me apologize to any who might take it as preaching rather that debating.

                                I associate the forgiveness of sins with the sabbatical and jubilee
                                years because of the Hebrew Scriptures not because of the N.T.. Brian
                                Peckham wrote a fascinating book on how he believed much of the Hebrew
                                Scriptures were written. I may well have misunderstood what he was
                                attempting to express but for me what became important in understanding
                                the H.S. was that it was written so that G-ds people would know how to
                                live in righteousness. Rightly or wrongly I have come to beleive that
                                forgiveness of debts, the freeing of the slaves, the redistribution of
                                the instruments of wealth and power associated with ownership of land in
                                an agrarian culture and the affirmation that all of G-ds people are
                                important, that is found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy to be the core of
                                how one is to live in righteousness. Righteousness not only with people
                                but with the Earth and with G-d. By restoring the land, by freeing the
                                slave one forgives the circumstances and or the actions that resulted in
                                the loss of the land or of the loss freedom. When I tie this in with
                                Jesus proclaiming that only as we forgive are we forgiven the journey is
                                complete and I end up equating forgiveness of sins with the sabbatical
                                and jubilee years.

                                P.S. I agree wholeheartidly that the Hebrew people were living in a
                                marvelously cross pollinated pan culture.

                                Brian

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                              • Lewis Reich
                                Liz Fried wrote:I think bodily illness was associated with sin. This is illustrated with the story of Miriam, who contracts leprosy for speaking ill of
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 6, 1999
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                                  Liz Fried wrote:

                                  > I think bodily illness was associated with sin. This is illustrated with the
                                  > story of Miriam, who contracts leprosy for speaking ill of Moses. This is
                                  > the debate in Job, as you point out. This is also the case in the NT. Jesus
                                  > forgives sins and people are cured of their diseases. He cures people of
                                  > their diseases, and tells them to sin no more. I know of no instance where
                                  > poverty or debts is assoiciated with sin. Jesus never cures anyone of
                                  > poverty, or tells them to go and be poor no more. Povrerty or debts was not
                                  > regarded as evidence of sin, only disease and death.\

                                  Although in specific instances, illness may have been inflicted because of sin,
                                  there seems to me no evidence in the Hebrew Bible that illness was generally
                                  evidence of sin.

                                  Lewis Reich
                                  LBR@...



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