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Re: [XTalk] Tacitus' Sources

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  • Geoffrey T Vincent
    Dear All, I wonder whether John might have a point here; Paul may well have died in Rome of natural causes . From what I can gather from reading Stark (The
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 20, 2001
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      Dear All,

      I wonder whether John might have a point here; Paul may well have died
      in Rome of 'natural causes'. From what I can gather from reading Stark
      (The Rise of Christianity) Rome was a particularly unhealthy place in
      which to live. More so perhaps for a man in his sixties who had been
      held in prison for some time, and who had previously been engaged in
      much arduous travel while missionising?

      Just a thought. I'm obtaining a great deal of enjoyment from this
      particular thread.

      Regards and many thanks to all

      Geoff Vincent


      John Lupia wrote:
      >
      > crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > "Jan Sammer"
      >
      > Let's see what evidence we do have. We know what the outcome of the trial
      > was: Paul was found guilty and executed (theories of a liberating verdict,
      > further missionary journeys and of a second trial lack any evidence to
      > support them) furthermore, we know that Paul waited for the trial for at
      > least two years. This means that the Roman authorities required this period
      > of time to prepare their case. Since within a few short years after the
      > investigation and conviction the Romans start targeting the Christians for
      > persecution, where earlier they had ignored them, the hypothesis that the
      > investigation and conviction had something to do with the change in attitude
      > seems like a reasonable one.
      >
      > and further on:
      >
      > Then why was the case not dismissed? Why did it end with Paul's execution?
      >
      > (JL)
      > When you say "we know" it implies a primary source. I have never seen
      > these sources. Could you be so kind and please provide them.
      >
      > Kelly Wellington:
      >
      > What evidence is there that Paul stood trial in
      > Rome and, as a result, was executed?
      >
      > I agree with Kelly here. There is a long line of tradition or consensus
      > among scholarly opinions that the case was dropped due to lack of evidence
      > of criminality. As for how and when St. Paul died no documentary evidence
      > exists. Tradition holds he was martyred in AD 67. I have never seen his
      > death certificate. You must keep in mind that the term martyr is a Greek
      > word that means to give testimony or bear witness. It became an appellation
      > given to an early Church hero or saint who lived their life bearing witness
      > to Christ. It does not necessitate being slain by religio-political
      > opponents. Tradition oftentimes spins fabulous myths about heroes making
      > them larger than life. Just as Dr. Gibson was so kind enough to point out
      > regarding apocrypha that filled gaps, in response to my posting of the Acta
      > Pilati. The so-called martyrdom of St. Paul being slain by a sword might
      > just be a similar twist given to the Pauline prosopography for martyrologies
      > or hagiographies by early ecclesiastical writers. Leon Herrmann is no
      > exception here. Honestly, we have no way of knowing. Personally, I am
      > inclined to think that St. Paul died of old age or by some physical ailment
      > after working for many years in Italy and perhaps Spain establishing
      > ecclesiastical communities and assisting in Church administration under the
      > bishop of Rome (then called the bishop of Italy), St. Peter.
      >
      > Christian persecution in the Roman empire is still being assessed and a
      > clearer picture of what actually did occur is being drawn up as we speak.
      > Pre-Constantinian Roman relations with Christians and the paleochristian
      > Church was not always hostile and persecutory. For example, during the
      > reign of the Emperor Aurelian (AD 272) the Church was a recognized legal
      > corporation that owned property (cf. Joseph A. Jungmann, SJ, The Early
      > Liturgy (Notre Dame, 1962) 14.
      >
      > Peace in Christ,
      > John
      > <><
      >
      > _______________________________________________________
      > Send a cool gift with your E-Card
      > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
      >
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      >
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    • Barlow, James C. DOC
      This hypothesis finds a match in the ending of Acts, e.g. the nature of Paul s demise was common knowledge. But then the problem is Clement s first epistle
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 21, 2001
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        This hypothesis finds a match in the ending of Acts, e.g. the nature of
        Paul's demise was 'common knowledge.' But then the problem is Clement's
        first epistle (c.94) which is written from Rome, only thirty years later,
        speaking of his beheading, as though IT were 'common knowledge' as well....

        -James Barlow

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Geoffrey T Vincent [mailto:gtv11@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 8:08 AM
        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XTalk] Tacitus' Sources


        Dear All,

        I wonder whether John might have a point here; Paul may well have died
        in Rome of 'natural causes'. From what I can gather from reading Stark
        (The Rise of Christianity) Rome was a particularly unhealthy place in
        which to live. More so perhaps for a man in his sixties who had been
        held in prison for some time, and who had previously been engaged in
        much arduous travel while missionising?

        Just a thought. I'm obtaining a great deal of enjoyment from this
        particular thread.

        Regards and many thanks to all

        Geoff Vincent


        John Lupia wrote:
        >
        > crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > "Jan Sammer"
        >
        > Let's see what evidence we do have. We know what the outcome of the trial
        > was: Paul was found guilty and executed (theories of a liberating verdict,
        > further missionary journeys and of a second trial lack any evidence to
        > support them) furthermore, we know that Paul waited for the trial for at
        > least two years. This means that the Roman authorities required this
        period
        > of time to prepare their case. Since within a few short years after the
        > investigation and conviction the Romans start targeting the Christians for
        > persecution, where earlier they had ignored them, the hypothesis that the
        > investigation and conviction had something to do with the change in
        attitude
        > seems like a reasonable one.
        >
        > and further on:
        >
        > Then why was the case not dismissed? Why did it end with Paul's execution?
        >
        > (JL)
        > When you say "we know" it implies a primary source. I have never seen
        > these sources. Could you be so kind and please provide them.
        >
        > Kelly Wellington:
        >
        > What evidence is there that Paul stood trial in
        > Rome and, as a result, was executed?
        >
        > I agree with Kelly here. There is a long line of tradition or consensus
        > among scholarly opinions that the case was dropped due to lack of evidence
        > of criminality. As for how and when St. Paul died no documentary evidence
        > exists. Tradition holds he was martyred in AD 67. I have never seen his
        > death certificate. You must keep in mind that the term martyr is a Greek
        > word that means to give testimony or bear witness. It became an
        appellation
        > given to an early Church hero or saint who lived their life bearing
        witness
        > to Christ. It does not necessitate being slain by religio-political
        > opponents. Tradition oftentimes spins fabulous myths about heroes making
        > them larger than life. Just as Dr. Gibson was so kind enough to point out
        > regarding apocrypha that filled gaps, in response to my posting of the
        Acta
        > Pilati. The so-called martyrdom of St. Paul being slain by a sword might
        > just be a similar twist given to the Pauline prosopography for
        martyrologies
        > or hagiographies by early ecclesiastical writers. Leon Herrmann is no
        > exception here. Honestly, we have no way of knowing. Personally, I am
        > inclined to think that St. Paul died of old age or by some physical
        ailment
        > after working for many years in Italy and perhaps Spain establishing
        > ecclesiastical communities and assisting in Church administration under
        the
        > bishop of Rome (then called the bishop of Italy), St. Peter.
        >
        > Christian persecution in the Roman empire is still being assessed and a
        > clearer picture of what actually did occur is being drawn up as we speak.
        > Pre-Constantinian Roman relations with Christians and the paleochristian
        > Church was not always hostile and persecutory. For example, during the
        > reign of the Emperor Aurelian (AD 272) the Church was a recognized legal
        > corporation that owned property (cf. Joseph A. Jungmann, SJ, The Early
        > Liturgy (Notre Dame, 1962) 14.
        >
        > Peace in Christ,
        > John
        > <><
        >
        > _______________________________________________________
        > Send a cool gift with your E-Card
        > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
        >
        > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
        >
        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
        crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > List managers may be contacted directly at:
        crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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      • Anton Mula
        ... nature of ... problem is Clement s ... later, ... knowledge as well.... ... Where does Clement write of Paul s beheading? What is the greek word or words
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 21, 2001
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          --- In crosstalk2@y..., "Barlow, James C. DOC"
          <James.Barlow@d...> wrote:
          > This hypothesis finds a match in the ending of Acts, e.g. the
          nature of
          > Paul's demise was 'common knowledge.' But then the
          problem is Clement's
          > first epistle (c.94) which is written from Rome, only thirty years
          later,
          > speaking of his beheading, as though IT were 'common
          knowledge' as well....
          >
          > -James Barlow
          >

          Where does Clement write of Paul's beheading? What is the
          greek word or words used?


          Anton Mula
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