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Re: [XTalk] Re: Honorable debate in agonistic cultures

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  • Loren Rosson
    [Bob] ... [Loren] A fair enough remark. However, [Bob] ... [Loren] It means everything to me, and I acknowledge with everyone else that the gospel writers put
    Message 1 of 109 , Jun 4, 2001
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      [Bob]
      > In general in this
      > debate, you haven't been very
      > keen on seeing any differences between
      > the authorial point of view of the
      > evangelist, and the voice of Jesus.

      [Loren]
      A fair enough remark. However,

      [Bob]
      > In other words, it seems to mean
      > nothing to you that the date of
      > composition of the gospels is several
      > generations after the time at which the
      > debates are supposed to have taken place.

      [Loren]
      It means everything to me, and I acknowledge with
      everyone else that the gospel writers put their own
      editorial spin on the tradition, with corresponding
      agendas. But I tend to see the bulk of sayings/deeds
      themselves as largely historical, even if they've been
      recast to suit the evangelists' purposes.

      [Bob]
      > It is easy to see bitterness and rage
      > if that is what you want to see.
      > However, I am leery of projecting into the
      > text the things that we want to
      > see there.

      [Loren]
      Who WANTS to see bitterness and rage? But one has a
      difficult time not seeing Jesus as driven by the same
      kind of fire, zeal, and anger that drove the classical
      prophets of the OT, as well as the wilderness and
      oracular prophets of the first century. We have to
      scrap a good deal of the tradition to argue otherwise.

      [Bob]
      > I am more persuaded by
      > E.P. Sanders' judgment that Jesus' agenda was
      > theological more than
      > political or economic. Not that Jesus didn't care
      > about the latter, but
      > that he was *more* interested in restoring the
      > relationship between Jews
      > and their God than in fomenting revolution, which
      > seems to be the logical
      > implication of all your 'bitterness and rage.'

      [Loren]
      Now our disagreement is complete. Sanders is surely
      correct that Jesus was interested in restoring the
      proper relationship between the Jews and Yahweh, but
      his ongoing liability is that he keeps politics and
      econmics almost completely at bay. You just can't do
      that when discussing Jesus. (Fredriksen is equally
      guilty on this point.) Scholars like Kaylor, Horsley,
      Herzog, and Wright, by contrast (and in different
      ways), present Jesus as a prophet equally concerned
      with theology/spirituality and politics/economics. The
      two have to go hand-in-hand.

      Loren Rosson III
      Nashua NH
      rossoiii@...

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    • Loren Rosson
      [James] Do you think these folks were armed? [Loren] No. With the possible exception of the Samaritan Prophet, the popular prophets didn t lead armed revolts.
      Message 109 of 109 , Jun 18, 2001
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        [James]
        Do you think these folks were armed?

        [Loren]
        No. With the possible exception of the Samaritan
        Prophet, the popular prophets didn't lead armed
        revolts. "Violence" was left as the prerogative of God
        alone, when He soon acted. Jesus followed suit here,
        never condoning human violence, elsewhere promising
        divine retribution (as in Mt. 11:20-24/Lk. 10:13-16).

        [James2]
        So, would you say that it is possible that the masses
        went out just to see IF a miracle would be performed,
        rather than to participate? Would they necessarily
        have
        had any clue as to the chance of being
        slaughtered as they were?

        [Loren2]
        I think the masses went out because they believed,
        fervently, that God would act; that the Kingdom was
        imminent. I see no reason to question the enthusiastic
        level of their participation in the march around
        Jerusalem's walls.

        [James]
        How many do you suppose there actually were?

        [Loren]
        A lot -- these are called "popular" prophets for good
        reason.

        [James2]
        Josephus is surely exaggerating with the numbers
        though, isn't he?

        [Loren2]
        Probably. I imagine hundreds, rather than thousands,
        of followers for the Egyptian prophet.

        [James]
        What do you think was their reason for being
        there? Just to innocently see if the Egyptian's
        claim would come to pass or to
        actually fight their way into Jerusalem?

        [Loren]
        I believe they circled Jerusalem with the expectation
        that (at the prophet's command) the walls of the city
        would come tumbling down, as Joshua's legendary shout
        had done to the walls of Jericho in ages past. This
        would have been the first apoacalyptic prelude to the
        Kingdom of God. I don't know how "innocent" this is,
        but I sense your sarcasm. However preposterous and
        naive such expectations may seem to us, they were no
        more so than, say, those of the followers of Theudas,
        who was supposed to have parted the waters of the
        Jordan before getting decapitated by Cuspius Fadus.

        [James2]
        Well, I'm wondering how we know any of these people
        were really doing anything more than going out to
        possibly observe a miracle...I'm reacting to the
        following article written by an historian who seems to
        paint first century peoples with too broad of a brush
        of gullibility, in an attempt to give us the
        background against which we should view claims about
        Jesus' miracles:

        http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html

        If you have the time, I'd appreciate any
        feedback/guidance on the overall quality of/points
        raised in that article.

        [Loren2]
        I would say the author of this article is daft,
        deluded, and devoid of sense. His disdain for the
        people of antiquity is galling. He writes:

        "The age of Jesus was not an age of critical
        reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an
        era filled with con artists, gullible believers,
        martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every
        variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the
        gospels do not seem remarkable at all. Even if they
        were false in every detail, there is no evidence that
        they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd
        by a people largely lacking in education or critical
        thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones,
        photographs, or public documents to consult to check a
        story...The shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered
        their voice and seized the world from them, boldly
        leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years
        of chaos."

        First of all, we cannot dismiss the movements of
        Theudas, the Egyptian Prophet, John the Baptist, or
        Jesus of Nazareth with the above sort of indictment.
        Much in these prophetic movements can be commended,
        just as much can be criticized. But we fail miserably
        in the historical task when we judge the past by
        so-called "enlightened" standards. Secondly, far from
        lacking "religious acumen", the age of Jesus -- that
        is, 2nd-Temple Judaism -- was marked by vibrancy,
        diversity, and (often enough) fierce intelligence.
        Obviously the author and I have very different views
        of the people of antiquity.

        So I can appreciate you reacting against this fellow.
        But that the Egyptian prophet and his followers were
        incited to riot (mad as they were under the Romans and
        Judean elite), and that they fervently believed Yahweh
        would soon act dramatically in history (in accordance
        with ways He had in the past), does not necessarily
        make the leader a "con artist" nor his followers
        "gullible". Does it?

        Loren Rosson III
        Nashua NH
        rossoiii@...


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