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Re: [XTalk] Re: Honorable debate in agonistic cultures

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  • Hudson Barton
    ... My ears have been itching this week. Now I know why. It is true, Bob, that Loren s 10 pericopes are not all suited to his thesis, that his exegesis
    Message 1 of 109 , Jun 1, 2001
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      Bob Schacht said:

      >There you go again, imposing the normative model on the individual.
      >I would rather see what the texts say. You did offer a set of 10
      >pericopes that you carefully chose to make your point, but even in
      >those, as Hudson Barton pointed out, don't support your point very
      >well, and was in fact more counter-cultural than you are willing to
      >admit.

      >And my point is that one must keep an open mind about what were the basic
      >parameters, and what was radical and subversive. I particularly liked the
      >comments of Hudson Barton on 5/18 in this regard: Jesus may have been
      >subversive of the Honor/Shame system, too. The Jesus Seminar, no apologists
      >they, affirm "love your enemies" as a core historical saying of Jesus,
      >which seems a bit subversive of the Honor/Shame system, if you ask me.


      My ears have been itching this week. Now I know why.

      It is true, Bob, that Loren's 10 pericopes are not all suited to his
      thesis, that his exegesis occasionally seems strained to fit his
      model, and that to the extent honor-shame was normative Jesus
      subverts that as well. However, I'm sure you agree that Loren's
      agonist model isn't totally worthless. Honor-shame is at least as
      good a model as that of radical egalitarian, political subversive,
      apocalyptic polemicist, joker, common rabbi, or any of the dozens of
      other models that get passed around from time to time.

      I for one welcome Loren's model in spite of its deficiencies. A
      proper historian always deconstructs, even those who think they
      don't. Well, Loren deconstructs more than most, but his argument is
      laid out in a clear linear fashion without excessive circularity.
      It's out there for all to see. Contrast this to arguments from the JS
      which are almost always totally circular. On balance I find the
      agonist model interesting, but I'm not satisfied that it is dominant.
      Using Loren's own examples I still find Jesus not inciting conflict
      but dissipating it, not evading but answering, not obfuscating but
      clarifying, not macho but considerate, not juvenile but mature. His
      preference seems to be for short debates with well-defined objectives
      and decisive conclusions, leading to resolution.

      Many years ago (1970), John R. W. Stott wrote a delightful book
      called "Christ the Controversialist". Stott made the point that
      "historic Christianity is essentially dogmatic, because it purports
      to be a revealed faith. If it were merely a collection of
      philosophical and ethical ideas (like Hinduism), dogmatism would be
      entirely out of place". That Christians are dogmatist is a given.

      I do have a short series of questions for Loren: The content of
      Jesus's debates being largely dogma must necessarily make Jesus look
      like a controversialist. Don't you think that the controversial
      content of the gospel drives your model of honor-shame at least as
      much as your model drives the content? Does the honor-shame model
      drive the content at all? Can the life & death importance of Jesus's
      central message be honestly separated from normative agonist debate?
      If not, then how important can the model really be for those who seek
      to understand who Jesus "really" was.


      Hudson Barton
      Haverford, Pa.
    • Loren Rosson
      [James] Do you think these folks were armed? [Loren] No. With the possible exception of the Samaritan Prophet, the popular prophets didn t lead armed revolts.
      Message 109 of 109 , Jun 18, 2001
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        [James]
        Do you think these folks were armed?

        [Loren]
        No. With the possible exception of the Samaritan
        Prophet, the popular prophets didn't lead armed
        revolts. "Violence" was left as the prerogative of God
        alone, when He soon acted. Jesus followed suit here,
        never condoning human violence, elsewhere promising
        divine retribution (as in Mt. 11:20-24/Lk. 10:13-16).

        [James2]
        So, would you say that it is possible that the masses
        went out just to see IF a miracle would be performed,
        rather than to participate? Would they necessarily
        have
        had any clue as to the chance of being
        slaughtered as they were?

        [Loren2]
        I think the masses went out because they believed,
        fervently, that God would act; that the Kingdom was
        imminent. I see no reason to question the enthusiastic
        level of their participation in the march around
        Jerusalem's walls.

        [James]
        How many do you suppose there actually were?

        [Loren]
        A lot -- these are called "popular" prophets for good
        reason.

        [James2]
        Josephus is surely exaggerating with the numbers
        though, isn't he?

        [Loren2]
        Probably. I imagine hundreds, rather than thousands,
        of followers for the Egyptian prophet.

        [James]
        What do you think was their reason for being
        there? Just to innocently see if the Egyptian's
        claim would come to pass or to
        actually fight their way into Jerusalem?

        [Loren]
        I believe they circled Jerusalem with the expectation
        that (at the prophet's command) the walls of the city
        would come tumbling down, as Joshua's legendary shout
        had done to the walls of Jericho in ages past. This
        would have been the first apoacalyptic prelude to the
        Kingdom of God. I don't know how "innocent" this is,
        but I sense your sarcasm. However preposterous and
        naive such expectations may seem to us, they were no
        more so than, say, those of the followers of Theudas,
        who was supposed to have parted the waters of the
        Jordan before getting decapitated by Cuspius Fadus.

        [James2]
        Well, I'm wondering how we know any of these people
        were really doing anything more than going out to
        possibly observe a miracle...I'm reacting to the
        following article written by an historian who seems to
        paint first century peoples with too broad of a brush
        of gullibility, in an attempt to give us the
        background against which we should view claims about
        Jesus' miracles:

        http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html

        If you have the time, I'd appreciate any
        feedback/guidance on the overall quality of/points
        raised in that article.

        [Loren2]
        I would say the author of this article is daft,
        deluded, and devoid of sense. His disdain for the
        people of antiquity is galling. He writes:

        "The age of Jesus was not an age of critical
        reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an
        era filled with con artists, gullible believers,
        martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every
        variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the
        gospels do not seem remarkable at all. Even if they
        were false in every detail, there is no evidence that
        they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd
        by a people largely lacking in education or critical
        thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones,
        photographs, or public documents to consult to check a
        story...The shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered
        their voice and seized the world from them, boldly
        leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years
        of chaos."

        First of all, we cannot dismiss the movements of
        Theudas, the Egyptian Prophet, John the Baptist, or
        Jesus of Nazareth with the above sort of indictment.
        Much in these prophetic movements can be commended,
        just as much can be criticized. But we fail miserably
        in the historical task when we judge the past by
        so-called "enlightened" standards. Secondly, far from
        lacking "religious acumen", the age of Jesus -- that
        is, 2nd-Temple Judaism -- was marked by vibrancy,
        diversity, and (often enough) fierce intelligence.
        Obviously the author and I have very different views
        of the people of antiquity.

        So I can appreciate you reacting against this fellow.
        But that the Egyptian prophet and his followers were
        incited to riot (mad as they were under the Romans and
        Judean elite), and that they fervently believed Yahweh
        would soon act dramatically in history (in accordance
        with ways He had in the past), does not necessarily
        make the leader a "con artist" nor his followers
        "gullible". Does it?

        Loren Rosson III
        Nashua NH
        rossoiii@...


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