Re: [XTalk] Re: Honorable debate in agonistic cultures
- Bob Schacht said:
>There you go again, imposing the normative model on the individual.My ears have been itching this week. Now I know why.
>I would rather see what the texts say. You did offer a set of 10
>pericopes that you carefully chose to make your point, but even in
>those, as Hudson Barton pointed out, don't support your point very
>well, and was in fact more counter-cultural than you are willing to
>And my point is that one must keep an open mind about what were the basic
>parameters, and what was radical and subversive. I particularly liked the
>comments of Hudson Barton on 5/18 in this regard: Jesus may have been
>subversive of the Honor/Shame system, too. The Jesus Seminar, no apologists
>they, affirm "love your enemies" as a core historical saying of Jesus,
>which seems a bit subversive of the Honor/Shame system, if you ask me.
It is true, Bob, that Loren's 10 pericopes are not all suited to his
thesis, that his exegesis occasionally seems strained to fit his
model, and that to the extent honor-shame was normative Jesus
subverts that as well. However, I'm sure you agree that Loren's
agonist model isn't totally worthless. Honor-shame is at least as
good a model as that of radical egalitarian, political subversive,
apocalyptic polemicist, joker, common rabbi, or any of the dozens of
other models that get passed around from time to time.
I for one welcome Loren's model in spite of its deficiencies. A
proper historian always deconstructs, even those who think they
don't. Well, Loren deconstructs more than most, but his argument is
laid out in a clear linear fashion without excessive circularity.
It's out there for all to see. Contrast this to arguments from the JS
which are almost always totally circular. On balance I find the
agonist model interesting, but I'm not satisfied that it is dominant.
Using Loren's own examples I still find Jesus not inciting conflict
but dissipating it, not evading but answering, not obfuscating but
clarifying, not macho but considerate, not juvenile but mature. His
preference seems to be for short debates with well-defined objectives
and decisive conclusions, leading to resolution.
Many years ago (1970), John R. W. Stott wrote a delightful book
called "Christ the Controversialist". Stott made the point that
"historic Christianity is essentially dogmatic, because it purports
to be a revealed faith. If it were merely a collection of
philosophical and ethical ideas (like Hinduism), dogmatism would be
entirely out of place". That Christians are dogmatist is a given.
I do have a short series of questions for Loren: The content of
Jesus's debates being largely dogma must necessarily make Jesus look
like a controversialist. Don't you think that the controversial
content of the gospel drives your model of honor-shame at least as
much as your model drives the content? Does the honor-shame model
drive the content at all? Can the life & death importance of Jesus's
central message be honestly separated from normative agonist debate?
If not, then how important can the model really be for those who seek
to understand who Jesus "really" was.
Do you think these folks were armed?
No. With the possible exception of the Samaritan
Prophet, the popular prophets didn't lead armed
revolts. "Violence" was left as the prerogative of God
alone, when He soon acted. Jesus followed suit here,
never condoning human violence, elsewhere promising
divine retribution (as in Mt. 11:20-24/Lk. 10:13-16).
So, would you say that it is possible that the masses
went out just to see IF a miracle would be performed,
rather than to participate? Would they necessarily
had any clue as to the chance of being
slaughtered as they were?
I think the masses went out because they believed,
fervently, that God would act; that the Kingdom was
imminent. I see no reason to question the enthusiastic
level of their participation in the march around
How many do you suppose there actually were?
A lot -- these are called "popular" prophets for good
Josephus is surely exaggerating with the numbers
though, isn't he?
Probably. I imagine hundreds, rather than thousands,
of followers for the Egyptian prophet.
What do you think was their reason for being
there? Just to innocently see if the Egyptian's
claim would come to pass or to
actually fight their way into Jerusalem?
I believe they circled Jerusalem with the expectation
that (at the prophet's command) the walls of the city
would come tumbling down, as Joshua's legendary shout
had done to the walls of Jericho in ages past. This
would have been the first apoacalyptic prelude to the
Kingdom of God. I don't know how "innocent" this is,
but I sense your sarcasm. However preposterous and
naive such expectations may seem to us, they were no
more so than, say, those of the followers of Theudas,
who was supposed to have parted the waters of the
Jordan before getting decapitated by Cuspius Fadus.
Well, I'm wondering how we know any of these people
were really doing anything more than going out to
possibly observe a miracle...I'm reacting to the
following article written by an historian who seems to
paint first century peoples with too broad of a brush
of gullibility, in an attempt to give us the
background against which we should view claims about
If you have the time, I'd appreciate any
feedback/guidance on the overall quality of/points
raised in that article.
I would say the author of this article is daft,
deluded, and devoid of sense. His disdain for the
people of antiquity is galling. He writes:
"The age of Jesus was not an age of critical
reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an
era filled with con artists, gullible believers,
martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every
variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the
gospels do not seem remarkable at all. Even if they
were false in every detail, there is no evidence that
they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd
by a people largely lacking in education or critical
thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones,
photographs, or public documents to consult to check a
story...The shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered
their voice and seized the world from them, boldly
leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years
First of all, we cannot dismiss the movements of
Theudas, the Egyptian Prophet, John the Baptist, or
Jesus of Nazareth with the above sort of indictment.
Much in these prophetic movements can be commended,
just as much can be criticized. But we fail miserably
in the historical task when we judge the past by
so-called "enlightened" standards. Secondly, far from
lacking "religious acumen", the age of Jesus -- that
is, 2nd-Temple Judaism -- was marked by vibrancy,
diversity, and (often enough) fierce intelligence.
Obviously the author and I have very different views
of the people of antiquity.
So I can appreciate you reacting against this fellow.
But that the Egyptian prophet and his followers were
incited to riot (mad as they were under the Romans and
Judean elite), and that they fervently believed Yahweh
would soon act dramatically in history (in accordance
with ways He had in the past), does not necessarily
make the leader a "con artist" nor his followers
"gullible". Does it?
Loren Rosson III
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