Re: [XTalk] Re: Honorable debate in agonistic cultures
> >After all, he left the primitive church[Bob]
> >behind him.
> I doubt very much he could have done that[Loren]
> if his debate style was as you
> have characterized it.
On the contrary, how else could he have won fame in
the eyes of people and left a movement to continue
where he left off?
> I'm simply distinguishing between the[Bob]
> particulars of
> history and the generals of social science.
> Painting a
> broad brush, we might say that historians address
> the uniqueness of Jesus, while social
> scientists look for the commonalities
> shared in all ancient Mediterranean
> societies. Both questions are equally
> So it sounds to me like your approach to the[Loren]
> historical Jesus is to project
> the normative tendencies of his time, place and
> culture onto him, and
> reject anything that doesn't fit that picture. This
> is actually very close
> to the modus operandi of the Jesus Seminar.
No, the Jesus Seminar does the opposite. They -- and
please regard "they" as a lazy convenience here,
meaning the collective "they" as represented by the
"Five Gospels" and "Acts of Jesus" -- certainly have
no use for seeing Jesus as fitting into the normative
tendencies of his time, far less with the agonistic
style of debate. For them, anything cutting AGAINST
the norm is what comes out "red".
> You did offer a set[Loren]
> of 10 pericopes that you
> carefully chose to make your point,
> but even in those, as Hudson Barton
> pointed out, don't support your
> point very well,
I think they support them quite well.
> and was in fact more[Loren]
> counter-cultural than you are willing to admit.
Bob, if you have understood me to be saying that Jesus
was not radical or countercultural you haven't been
paying attention. Those 10 case studies show Jesus to
be very subversive: he attacks purity; he forbids
divorce; he thinks taxation is immoral but doesn't
even condone sedition in the process (doubly
revolutionary, on this point); he believes that
forgiveness can be effected outside appropriate temple
channels. Hello!! That's not a John Doe we're looking
at. All I'm saying is that he confronted his foes like
anyone else in his place would have had to, in order
to be taken seriously. (Is this really so hard to
If you really believe that I've looked down into that
Schweitzerian well to see myself in Jesus, I can only
scratch my head. The agonistic style of debate is as
foreign to my own upbringing as it is to many people
in the West.
That's all for now -- I have to leave town for the
day, but I will get back with some more comments,
particularly with respect to the "love your enemies"
saying. It might be worth opening a thread on that one
Loren Rosson III
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Do you think these folks were armed?
No. With the possible exception of the Samaritan
Prophet, the popular prophets didn't lead armed
revolts. "Violence" was left as the prerogative of God
alone, when He soon acted. Jesus followed suit here,
never condoning human violence, elsewhere promising
divine retribution (as in Mt. 11:20-24/Lk. 10:13-16).
So, would you say that it is possible that the masses
went out just to see IF a miracle would be performed,
rather than to participate? Would they necessarily
had any clue as to the chance of being
slaughtered as they were?
I think the masses went out because they believed,
fervently, that God would act; that the Kingdom was
imminent. I see no reason to question the enthusiastic
level of their participation in the march around
How many do you suppose there actually were?
A lot -- these are called "popular" prophets for good
Josephus is surely exaggerating with the numbers
though, isn't he?
Probably. I imagine hundreds, rather than thousands,
of followers for the Egyptian prophet.
What do you think was their reason for being
there? Just to innocently see if the Egyptian's
claim would come to pass or to
actually fight their way into Jerusalem?
I believe they circled Jerusalem with the expectation
that (at the prophet's command) the walls of the city
would come tumbling down, as Joshua's legendary shout
had done to the walls of Jericho in ages past. This
would have been the first apoacalyptic prelude to the
Kingdom of God. I don't know how "innocent" this is,
but I sense your sarcasm. However preposterous and
naive such expectations may seem to us, they were no
more so than, say, those of the followers of Theudas,
who was supposed to have parted the waters of the
Jordan before getting decapitated by Cuspius Fadus.
Well, I'm wondering how we know any of these people
were really doing anything more than going out to
possibly observe a miracle...I'm reacting to the
following article written by an historian who seems to
paint first century peoples with too broad of a brush
of gullibility, in an attempt to give us the
background against which we should view claims about
If you have the time, I'd appreciate any
feedback/guidance on the overall quality of/points
raised in that article.
I would say the author of this article is daft,
deluded, and devoid of sense. His disdain for the
people of antiquity is galling. He writes:
"The age of Jesus was not an age of critical
reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an
era filled with con artists, gullible believers,
martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every
variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the
gospels do not seem remarkable at all. Even if they
were false in every detail, there is no evidence that
they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd
by a people largely lacking in education or critical
thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones,
photographs, or public documents to consult to check a
story...The shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered
their voice and seized the world from them, boldly
leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years
First of all, we cannot dismiss the movements of
Theudas, the Egyptian Prophet, John the Baptist, or
Jesus of Nazareth with the above sort of indictment.
Much in these prophetic movements can be commended,
just as much can be criticized. But we fail miserably
in the historical task when we judge the past by
so-called "enlightened" standards. Secondly, far from
lacking "religious acumen", the age of Jesus -- that
is, 2nd-Temple Judaism -- was marked by vibrancy,
diversity, and (often enough) fierce intelligence.
Obviously the author and I have very different views
of the people of antiquity.
So I can appreciate you reacting against this fellow.
But that the Egyptian prophet and his followers were
incited to riot (mad as they were under the Romans and
Judean elite), and that they fervently believed Yahweh
would soon act dramatically in history (in accordance
with ways He had in the past), does not necessarily
make the leader a "con artist" nor his followers
"gullible". Does it?
Loren Rosson III
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