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Re: [XTalk] mAboth

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  • Jim West
    see either danby or neusner. both provide good english translations and both offer good introductions best jim ... Mishnah and the dates some of them were
    Message 1 of 8 , May 30 3:03 PM
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      see either danby or neusner. both provide good english translations and
      both offer good introductions

      best

      jim


      At 05:24 PM 5/30/01 -0400, you wrote:
      >Hello all:
      >
      >I have been trying to find an English translation of portions of the
      Mishnah and the dates some of them were written.
      >Could anyone advise me as to when mAboth was written and whether or not it
      is possible to find an English translation anywhere?
      >
      >Thanks
      >
      >Patrick Paulsen
      >Toronto Ontario
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      Jim West, ThD

      Home Page:
      Biblical Studies Resources
      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
    • Michael H Jost
      If your are into electronics, the Mishnah is included in English and Hebrew in Socino s CD-Rom of the Talmud Michael Jost On Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:37 -0400
      Message 2 of 8 , May 30 5:17 PM
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        If your are into electronics, the Mishnah is included in English and
        Hebrew in Socino's CD-Rom of the Talmud

        Michael Jost
        On Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:37 -0400 "David C. Hindley"
        <dhindley@...> writes:
        > Patrick Paulsen asks:
        >
        > >>I have been trying to find an English translation of portions of
        > the
        > Mishnah and the dates some of them were written. Could anyone
        > advise
        > me as to when mAboth was written and whether or not it is possible
        > to
        > find an English translation anywhere?<<
        >
        > Patrick,
        >
        > Sure.
        >
        > R. H. Charles' _Apocrypha & _Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament_
        > vol
        > 2 has a translation of this tractate, with copious critical notes,
        > by
        > R. Travers Herford. Date of composition is left open, but the last
        > teacher mentioned in chapter 1 lived until the time of the first
        > Jewish war (about 70 CE), and the bulk of chapter 2 revolves around
        > R.
        > Johanan ben Zaccai, who re-established tradition after the war, and
        > his own teacher and pupils. The rest of the chapters seem to belong
        > to
        > the period up until the compilation of the Mishna by Rabbi Judah
        > the
        > Prince ca. 200 CE.
        >
        > Then there are always the various translations of the whole Mishna
        > that are commonly available in bookstores. Most are familiar with
        > Herbert Danby's _The Mishna_, but there are others available,
        > including one from Jacob Neusner which I understand does a good job
        > of
        > making the discussions intelligible to non specialists (although in
        > the case of Aboth there is no halacha involved).
        >
        > Respectfully,
        >
        > Dave Hindley
        > Cleveland, Ohio, USA
        >
        >
        >
        > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
        >
        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
        > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
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        > crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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        >
        >
        >
      • The Paulsen Family
        Hello again. One quote from a particular rabbinic writing I have been trying to track down for the last couple of years (not exactly energetically) is: If two
        Message 3 of 8 , May 31 8:48 AM
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          Hello again.

          One quote from a particular rabbinic writing I have been trying to track
          down for the last couple of years (not exactly energetically) is:

          "If two sit together and words of the Law are spoken between them, the
          divine presence rests between them."


          I have found that it is a tractate in the Mishnah (mAboth 3.2 to be
          specific). I am now trying to find out if we can be at all certain of the
          date of the saying. [Not the date of the writing , but the rough date of the
          tradition]. I have found that this tractate contains traditions dating from
          app. 30 BC to the end of the first century and from as many as 60 (or so)
          rabbis. I am trying to find the date since it so closely resembles Jesus'
          saying in Mt 18:20 ("where two or three come together in my name, there am
          i with them").

          Given its content, it makes sense that this tractate could hve been be
          written after the destruction of the temple, when study of Torah was
          replacing the sacrificial system of the temple. However, it also seems
          conceivable that it could have been written earlier by a member (or for the
          benefit of members) of the diaspora, since they would not have access to the
          temple and would need encouragement that their faithful study of Torah could
          be a valid substitute for temple worship.

          I am wondering which saying came first:

          1- Did Jesus (as He so often did) modify an oral tradition to point to
          Himself? (In this case His hearers would obviously make the connection and
          see that He was showing how He could be seen as "replacing" the temple).

          2- Did the oral tradition borrow one of His sayings and make it apply to
          Torah and rabbinic studies? (I think this would be less likely, but I don't
          know)

          3- Are they independent sayings and it is just a (huge) coincidence?
          (This seems even harder to believe).

          I would appreciate any help on this (it may not even be possible to solve
          this).

          Thanks

          Patrick Paulsen
          Toronto Ontario





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "David C. Hindley" <dhindley@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 6:43 PM
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] mAboth


          > Patrick Paulsen asks:
          >
          > >>I have been trying to find an English translation of portions of the
          > Mishnah and the dates some of them were written. Could anyone advise
          > me as to when mAboth was written and whether or not it is possible to
          > find an English translation anywhere?<<
          >
          > Patrick,
          >
          > Sure.
          >
          > R. H. Charles' _Apocrypha & _Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament_ vol
          > 2 has a translation of this tractate, with copious critical notes, by
          > R. Travers Herford. Date of composition is left open, but the last
          > teacher mentioned in chapter 1 lived until the time of the first
          > Jewish war (about 70 CE), and the bulk of chapter 2 revolves around R.
          > Johanan ben Zaccai, who re-established tradition after the war, and
          > his own teacher and pupils. The rest of the chapters seem to belong to
          > the period up until the compilation of the Mishna by Rabbi Judah the
          > Prince ca. 200 CE.
          >
          > Then there are always the various translations of the whole Mishna
          > that are commonly available in bookstores. Most are familiar with
          > Herbert Danby's _The Mishna_, but there are others available,
          > including one from Jacob Neusner which I understand does a good job of
          > making the discussions intelligible to non specialists (although in
          > the case of Aboth there is no halacha involved).
          >
          > Respectfully,
          >
          > Dave Hindley
          > Cleveland, Ohio, USA
          >
          >
          >
          > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
          >
          > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
          crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
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          crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... [snip] ... Not to be curt, but have you not thought about consulting some of the major commentaries on Matthew (such as Davies and Allison or D. Hagner or
          Message 4 of 8 , May 31 9:20 AM
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            The Paulsen Family wrote:

            > Hello again.
            >
            > One quote from a particular rabbinic writing I have been trying to
            > track
            > down for the last couple of years (not exactly energetically) is:
            >
            > "If two sit together and words of the Law are spoken between them, the
            >
            > divine presence rests between them."

            [snip]

            > I am wondering which saying came first:
            >
            > 1- Did Jesus (as He so often did) modify an oral tradition to point to
            >
            > Himself? (In this case His hearers would obviously make the connection
            > and
            > see that He was showing how He could be seen as "replacing" the
            > temple).
            >
            > 2- Did the oral tradition borrow one of His sayings and make it apply
            > to
            > Torah and rabbinic studies? (I think this would be less likely, but I
            > don't
            > know)
            >
            > 3- Are they independent sayings and it is just a (huge) coincidence?
            > (This seems even harder to believe).
            >
            > I would appreciate any help on this (it may not even be possible to
            > solve
            > this).

            Not to be curt, but have you not thought about consulting some of the
            major commentaries on Matthew (such as Davies and Allison or D. Hagner
            or U. Luz) to help you answer your questions? You will find discussions
            of these points set out there.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey Gibson
            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
            7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
            Chicago, Illinois 60626
            e-mail jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • The Paulsen Family
            Yes, I am going to be consulting Davies and Allison. I just thought I would get more feedback form a greater variety of sources this way. If this is a topic
            Message 5 of 8 , May 31 9:40 AM
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              Yes, I am going to be consulting Davies and Allison. I just thought I would
              get more feedback form a greater variety of sources this way.

              If this is a topic which is basic and well-known, I apologize for wasting
              your time.

              Thanks

              Patrick Paulsen
              Toronto Ontario

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [XTalk] mAboth


              > The Paulsen Family wrote:
              >
              > > Hello again.
              > >
              > > One quote from a particular rabbinic writing I have been trying to
              > > track
              > > down for the last couple of years (not exactly energetically) is:
              > >
              > > "If two sit together and words of the Law are spoken between them, the
              > >
              > > divine presence rests between them."
              >
              > [snip]
              >
              > > I am wondering which saying came first:
              > >
              > > 1- Did Jesus (as He so often did) modify an oral tradition to point to
              > >
              > > Himself? (In this case His hearers would obviously make the connection
              > > and
              > > see that He was showing how He could be seen as "replacing" the
              > > temple).
              > >
              > > 2- Did the oral tradition borrow one of His sayings and make it apply
              > > to
              > > Torah and rabbinic studies? (I think this would be less likely, but I
              > > don't
              > > know)
              > >
              > > 3- Are they independent sayings and it is just a (huge) coincidence?
              > > (This seems even harder to believe).
              > >
              > > I would appreciate any help on this (it may not even be possible to
              > > solve
              > > this).
              >
              > Not to be curt, but have you not thought about consulting some of the
              > major commentaries on Matthew (such as Davies and Allison or D. Hagner
              > or U. Luz) to help you answer your questions? You will find discussions
              > of these points set out there.
              >
              > Yours,
              >
              > Jeffrey Gibson
              > --
              > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
              > 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
              > Chicago, Illinois 60626
              > e-mail jgibson000@...
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
              >
              > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
              crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > List managers may be contacted directly at:
              crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
              ... No, it s not a waste of time. And I apologize if I conveyed otherwise. Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 7423 N. Sheridan Road
              Message 6 of 8 , May 31 10:04 AM
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                The Paulsen Family wrote:

                > Yes, I am going to be consulting Davies and Allison. I just thought I
                > would
                > get more feedback form a greater variety of sources this way.
                >
                > If this is a topic which is basic and well-known, I apologize for
                > wasting
                > your time.

                No, it's not a waste of time. And I apologize if I conveyed otherwise.

                Yours,

                Jeffrey Gibson


                --
                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                Chicago, Illinois 60626
                e-mail jgibson000@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David C. Hindley
                ... specific). I am now trying to find out if we can be at all certain of the date of the saying. [Not the date of the writing , but the rough date of the
                Message 7 of 8 , May 31 11:06 AM
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                  Patrick Paulson said:

                  >>I have found that it is a tractate in the Mishnah (mAboth 3.2 to be
                  specific). I am now trying to find out if we can be at all certain of
                  the date of the saying. [Not the date of the writing , but the rough
                  date of the tradition]. I have found that this tractate contains
                  traditions dating from app. 30 BC to the end of the first century and
                  from as many as 60 (or so) rabbis. I am trying to find the date since
                  it so closely resembles Jesus' saying in Mt 18:20 ("where two or three
                  come together in my name, there am i with them").<<

                  R. Hanania ben Teradion died in 135 CE during the Bar Cocheba revolt,
                  according to both Danby and Hereford. The latter dates the saying to
                  "end of first century and beginning of second."

                  You might find Mahlon Smith's "Into His own" web page of interest:
                  http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/#Background

                  Parallels between rabbinical literature and Christian traditions are
                  at:
                  http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/meals.html#three

                  Parallel 127. Where Two or Three are Gathered
                  2 Rabbi cHanania ben Teradion said:
                  --"When two sit together and do not discuss words of Torah,
                  this case is a session of scoffers, as it is said:
                  -- 'nor does he sit in the seat of scoffers ' (Ps 1:1).
                  But when two sit and there are words of Torah between them,
                  the Presence [Shekinah] dwells among them.
                  3 Rabbi Simeon (ben Jochai) said:
                  --"When three eat at one table and words of Torah are not spoken
                  there,
                  it is as if they ate at the altars of the dead, as it is said:
                  -- 'For all their tables are full of vomit and waste,
                  there is no God (Heb: maqom; lit: "place")...' (Isa 28:8).
                  But when three eat at one table and bring up words of Torah,
                  it is as if they ate from the table of God (maqom), blessed be He!,
                  as it is said:
                  --'And he said to me:
                  This is the table that is before the LORD' (Ezek 41:22)."
                  --- Mishna, Aboth 3.2-3

                  A list of rabbinical personages with a bit of historical detail about
                  each of them is at:
                  http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/rabbis.html#28

                  cHanania ben Teradion, 2nd generation tannaim, mentor unknown,
                  associated with school at Siknin, active 100-135 CE, died with R.
                  AQIBA (ben Joseph, who started compiling the Mishna, but did not live
                  to complete his work).

                  Simeon (ben Jochai), 3rd generation tannaim, student of AQIBA,
                  associated with school at Usha, active 125-150 CE, noted haggadist,
                  survived Hadrianic war.

                  Respectfully,

                  Dave Hindley
                  Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                • david cook
                  Hi, you ve probably had answers to this with more detail already, but if not, then here are a few hints: Mishnah is translated by Herbert Danby and published
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 4, 2001
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                    Hi, you've probably had answers to this with more detail already, but if
                    not, then here are a few hints:
                    Mishnah is translated by Herbert Danby and published by Clarendon
                    Press/Oxford UP. This includes Avot, of course.
                    There is a translation of Avot with Hebrew text and commentary by R.Travers
                    Herford (A Unitarian scholar and librarian of Dr Williams's Library in
                    London at the end of C19; this was republished by Schocken in the 1960's or
                    so. There is also a commentary by Charles Taylor, I think about the same
                    date.
                    B.T.Viviano, Study as Worship (Brill, somewhere in 1980s? - dcotorate under
                    W,D,Davies as I recall) gives a more recent commentary on parts of Avot.
                    W.D.Davies ,has an essay, subtitled `Avot Revisited' in his Jewish and
                    Pauline Studies.
                    Chaim Albeck has an introduction to the Mishnah (available in at least
                    Hebrew and German)and there are of course discussions of many of these
                    general questions in the revised Schuerer-Vermes-Millar, and, I would guess,
                    Stemberger (don't know this work personally); Strack's Intro to Talmud and
                    Midrash. There is also bound(! :-)) to be something by teh inexhaustible
                    Neusner, if you can find it in the heap!
                    Hope this is of some use.
                    David Cook
                    Cranbrook School
                    Cranbrook
                    Kent UK


                    >From: "The Paulsen Family" <pjandcompany@...>
                    >Reply-To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re: [XTalk] mAboth
                    >Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 12:40:18 -0400
                    >
                    >Yes, I am going to be consulting Davies and Allison. I just thought I would
                    >get more feedback form a greater variety of sources this way.
                    >
                    >If this is a topic which is basic and well-known, I apologize for wasting
                    >your time.
                    >
                    >Thanks
                    >
                    >Patrick Paulsen
                    >Toronto Ontario
                    >
                    >----- Original Message -----
                    >From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                    >To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:20 PM
                    >Subject: Re: [XTalk] mAboth
                    >
                    >
                    > > The Paulsen Family wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Hello again.
                    > > >
                    > > > One quote from a particular rabbinic writing I have been trying to
                    > > > track
                    > > > down for the last couple of years (not exactly energetically) is:
                    > > >
                    > > > "If two sit together and words of the Law are spoken between them, the
                    > > >
                    > > > divine presence rests between them."
                    > >
                    > > [snip]
                    > >
                    > > > I am wondering which saying came first:
                    > > >
                    > > > 1- Did Jesus (as He so often did) modify an oral tradition to point to
                    > > >
                    > > > Himself? (In this case His hearers would obviously make the connection
                    > > > and
                    > > > see that He was showing how He could be seen as "replacing" the
                    > > > temple).
                    > > >
                    > > > 2- Did the oral tradition borrow one of His sayings and make it apply
                    > > > to
                    > > > Torah and rabbinic studies? (I think this would be less likely, but I
                    > > > don't
                    > > > know)
                    > > >
                    > > > 3- Are they independent sayings and it is just a (huge) coincidence?
                    > > > (This seems even harder to believe).
                    > > >
                    > > > I would appreciate any help on this (it may not even be possible to
                    > > > solve
                    > > > this).
                    > >
                    > > Not to be curt, but have you not thought about consulting some of the
                    > > major commentaries on Matthew (such as Davies and Allison or D. Hagner
                    > > or U. Luz) to help you answer your questions? You will find discussions
                    > > of these points set out there.
                    > >
                    > > Yours,
                    > >
                    > > Jeffrey Gibson
                    > > --
                    > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                    > > 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                    > > Chicago, Illinois 60626
                    > > e-mail jgibson000@...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
                    > >
                    > > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                    >crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
                    >crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                    >crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

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