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Re: [XTalk] Failed wisdom?

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Or, perhaps, that the title misses the point. I have a lot of problems with an overemphasis on wisdom as the main thing of significance about someone
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 20, 2001
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      At 11:24 AM 1/17/01 +0100, Daniel Grolin wrote:

      >...If we assume that the execution or imprisonment of John turned into a
      >disenchantment with what appear to be a failed millennial hope. Then
      >Jesus' transformation into a wisdom version of the kingdom, a realised
      >eschatology, could be perceived by John's followers as the fulfilment of
      >their hopes. Jesus would be giving them the key to hold their reverence
      >for John as a true prophet in spite of his apparent failure. Jesus would
      >thus appear as a reformer inside the John movement, who could draw many of
      >John's disciples into the Jesus movement. I would assume that the first
      >disciples of Jesus would not clearly differentiate between Jesus message
      >from before and after the reform.
      >
      >...As the title implies I also find it possible that wisdom could fail....

      Or, perhaps, that the title misses the point. I have a lot of problems with
      an overemphasis on "wisdom" as the main thing of significance about someone
      from a farming village in a rural part of Israel far from Jerusalem, whose
      ministry was conducted primarily in rural villages, and who made no claims
      to being well-educated (unlike Paul, for example.) I have no argument with
      the idea that some of the Gospel writers were at pains to *portray* Jesus
      as a wisdom teacher. And in fact, I might drop my reservations about the
      emphasis on "wisdom" if it turns out that you include theology as a branch
      of wisdom that Jesus was particularly interested in. But if theology is not
      included within "wisdom," then it seems to me that the shoe just doesn't fit.

      Bob



      Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
      Northern Arizona University
      Flagstaff, AZ


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Daniel Grolin
      Dear Bob, You wrote:
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 20, 2001
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        Dear Bob,

        You wrote:
        <Or, perhaps, that the title misses the point. I have a lot of problems
        with an overemphasis on "wisdom" as the main thing of significance about
        someone from a farming village in a rural part of Israel far from
        Jerusalem, whose ministry was conducted primarily in rural villages, and
        who made no claims to being well-educated (unlike Paul, for example.) I
        have no argument with the idea that some of the Gospel writers were at
        pains to *portray* Jesus as a wisdom teacher. And in fact, I might drop my
        reservations about the emphasis on "wisdom" if it turns out that you
        include theology as a branch of wisdom that Jesus was particularly
        interested in. But if theology is not included within "wisdom," then it
        seems to me that the shoe just doesn't fit.>

        Your point is well taken. My use of the term "wisdom" was vague at
        best. Wisdom literature was an interaction between Hellenic and Jewish
        culture, but that is not the setting of Jesus' ministry as you rightly
        point out. Clearly if we speak of wisdom in connection with Jesus this is
        clearly not what we mean. I used the term as it has been applied to the
        first layer of Q, often in contrast to the second layer. Perhaps the term
        ethical or realised eschatology would be more appropriate for what I was
        referring to. The wisdom that Jesus appealed to, however, was not
        theological or philosophical in the scholarly sense. It was popular
        religious wisdom that Jesus which appealed to, which is why I am
        uncomfortable with the wholesale acceptance of the Markan passage I
        discussed in my previous post.

        Regards,

        Daniel
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