Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour

Expand Messages
  • Mark Cameron
    From: Jan Sammer To: Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      From: Jan Sammer <sammer@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour


      > > >Can the Shroud of Turin provide a clue? Without taking sides in this
      > ongoing
      > > >controversy, I would think that a discussion of the physical appearance
      > of
      > > >the historical Jesus should at least include a reference to it, on the
      > > >narrow chance that the shroud really is what it is alleged to be.
      > > >
      > > >Jan Sammer
      > >
      > > Doesn't all the evidence point to a provenance in the Middles Ages for
      > this
      > > artifact? So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
      splinters
      > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
      > to
      > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
      > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
      And
      > > all the other church fathers. The carbon dating, verified by several
      > > independent investigators, is surely telling.
      > >
      > > Steve Allison
      > > Knoxville, TN
      > >
      > Reading through various websites on the subject recently, I got the
      > impression that the matter was not completely settled as yet. I must agree
      > with you that the chances of its being authentic are vanishingly small.
      Even
      > so, it seems to me that a discussion of the physical appearance of the
      > historical Jesus ought to make some sort of a reference to it, if only to
      > reject the credibility of its evidence.
      >
      > Jan

      Without entering into the shroud debate, there is an image of Jesus that
      does seem to have played an important role in shaping later artistic
      impressions of Jesus: the image of Edessa, which is sometimes referred to as
      the Mandylion. The image was allegedly discovered during a siege of Edessa
      (a Parthian city which may have been Christianized as early as 200 a.d.) by
      the Persians in 544 a.d., and is credited with miraculously saving the city.
      The Edessa image was a face imprinted on a cloth and was referred to in 6th
      century sources as "not made with hands." Shortly thereafter, the typical
      Byzantine image of Christ (bearded, wide eyes, forward looking face) starts
      making its appearance on coins and icons, replacing the earlier younger,
      beardless images of Christ. In 944 a.d., the image was transferred from
      Edessa to Constantinople, where it became highly venerated in the Byzantine
      liturgy, receiving its own feast day on August 16, the day after the
      Dormition of Mary. There are numerous artistic representations of this
      image dating from the 10th through 12th centuries. The image seems to have
      disappeared after the sack of Constantinople in 1204.

      There are a number of uncanny resemblances between the Edessa face in
      Byzantine art and the face on the Shroud of Turin, and some have speculated
      that the two images are the same, with the cloth of Edessa being brought to
      Europe by the Crusaders, eventually showing up in 14th century France. This
      is of course highly speculative, given the C-14 dating of the Shroud. But
      there is no question that the Edessa image played an important role in
      transforming artistic representations of Jesus from the late 6th century
      onwards.

      Mark Cameron
      Ottawa, Canada
    • Billy Evans
      Steven Allison commented on the Shroud: So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time, splinters ... And According to Acts the first century people
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Steven Allison commented on the Shroud:

        So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
        splinters
        > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
        > to
        > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
        > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
        And

        According to Acts the first century people WERE interested in collecting
        bones and clothes of the Apostles. Just an observation, but it's so obvious
        that I must have missed your point.

        --William J Evans Jr
        grad of Hebrew Union College--Cincinnati
        Dissertation with UNISA
        10251 Pendery Drive
        Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
        bevans@...


        ----------
        >From: "Mark Cameron" <cameron_mark@...>
        >To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
        >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour
        >Date: Mon, Jan 1, 2001, 5:47 PM
        >

        > So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
        > splinters
        >> > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
        >> to
        >> > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
        >> > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
        > And
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Um ...could I please have the reference(s) from Acts on this matter? Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          .Billy Evans wrote:

          > Steven Allison commented on the Shroud:
          >
          > So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
          > splinters
          > > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
          > > to
          > > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
          > > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
          > And
          >
          > According to Acts the first century people WERE interested in collecting
          > bones and clothes of the Apostles. Just an observation, but it's so obvious
          > that I must have missed your point.

          Um ...could I please have the reference(s) from Acts on this matter?

          Yours,

          Jeffrey Gibson
          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
          7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
          Chicago, Illinois 60626
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Billy Evans
          Jeff: Acts 19:11-12 says: And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Jeff:

            Acts 19:11-12 says: "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of
            Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the
            sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them."

            Then there is Acts 5:15 which supports the notion of magic associated with
            Peter: "so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid
            them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might
            fall on some of them."

            I remember reading years ago the number of church fathers who acknowledged
            the large numbers of people who kept cloths etc of Christian miracle workers
            of the first century. Maybe, Quatson's Patrology will provide this
            information under Acts 19:11-12.

            I wish I could be of more help.

            --William J Evans Jr
            grad of Hebrew Union College--Cincinnati
            Dissertation with UNISA
            10251 Pendery Drive
            Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
            bevans@...


            ----------
            >From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
            >To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour
            >Date: Mon, Jan 1, 2001, 6:00 PM
            >

            > .Billy Evans wrote:
            >
            >> Steven Allison commented on the Shroud:
            >>
            >> So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
            >> splinters
            >> > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
            >> > to
            >> > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
            >> > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
            >> And
            >>
            >> According to Acts the first century people WERE interested in collecting
            >> bones and clothes of the Apostles. Just an observation, but it's so obvious
            >> that I must have missed your point.
            >
            > Um ...could I please have the reference(s) from Acts on this matter?
            >
            > Yours,
            >
            > Jeffrey Gibson
            > --
            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
            > 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
            > Chicago, Illinois 60626
            > e-mail jgibson000@...
            >
            >
            >
            > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
            >
            > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
            >
            > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
          • Mark Goodacre
            Many thanks for all the helpful feedback on the question of Jesus as a person of colour . I ve tried to sketch out some bits and bobs on my Jesus web site
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 9, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Many thanks for all the helpful feedback on the question of "Jesus
              as a person of colour". I've tried to sketch out some bits and
              bobs on my "Jesus" web site at:

              http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/jesus/colour.htm

              I should stress that this is just a short sketch of some of the
              relevant issues as I have picked them up in the literature and it will
              want a lot of revising as time goes on. It's an area where I'm
              trying to learn, so all help is much appreciated.

              Best wishes
              Mark


              -----------------------------
              Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
              Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
              University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
              Birmingham B15 2TT
              United Kingdom

              http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
              Homepage
              http://NTGateway.com
              The New Testament Gateway
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.