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Re: [XTalk] Re: Jesus as a man of colour

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  • Jan Sammer
    It is a fact of life, Robert, that many of the assumptions one grows up with turn out to be wrong. This it seems to me applies to your deductions from viewing
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 26, 2000
      It is a fact of life, Robert, that many of the assumptions one grows up with
      turn out to be wrong. This it seems to me applies to your deductions from
      viewing the Ashmolean Museum's Egyptian galleries. The genetic makeup of the
      ancient Egyptians can be reliably determined from their mummies, other clues
      to their appearance being provided by scultptures, the Fayum portraits, etc.
      In appearance they seem to have resembled the present inhabitants of Egypt,
      most of whom are their descendants, with an admixture of Arab and other
      elements. I don't know if you would characterize modern Egyptians as "black"
      or not. Perhaps they are by some definitions. Posing the issue in terms of
      "black" and "white" racial stereotypes does not allow for a fair assessment.
      In truth they were neither. What one can safely assert is that members of
      the Ethiopian (25th) dynasty are usually depicted with features more
      characteristic of Central African populations than those of North African
      populations. There is no evidence that the inhabitants of North Africa,
      including Egypt, were ever predominantly of a Central African ("black")
      stock. Could it be that the rejection of the "black Egyptians" theory is due
      to its being clearly untenable, as well as fundamentally racist, rather than
      to alleged racial prejudices on the part of its "white" opponents?

      This said, can we get back to the historical Jesus?

      Can the Shroud of Turin provide a clue? Without taking sides in this ongoing
      controversy, I would think that a discussion of the physical appearance of
      the historical Jesus should at least include a reference to it, on the
      narrow chance that the shroud really is what it is alleged to be.

      Jan Sammer

      Robert Brenchley:
      > I grew up in Oxford, England,
      > where the Ashmolean Museum has quite a good Egyptology collection. Being
      > familiar with this, I grew up with the assumption that the Ancient
      Egyptians
      > were Black; to this day I fail to understand how anyone can see the way
      they
      > portrayed themselves, and seriously believe anything else. A common White
      > response to this idea is complete horror. Not all are that bad, but I
      believe
      > that this sort of thins is probably less deeply ingrained on this side of
      the
      > Atlantic.
    • Lorna Wilson
      Robert, I am entering into this conversation late regarding possible resources for Jesus as the man of colour. Both Stony Road we Trod and Troubling Biblical
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 26, 2000
        Robert,

        I am entering into this conversation late regarding possible resources for
        "Jesus as the man of colour." Both Stony Road we Trod and Troubling Biblical
        Waters:Race, Class, and Family by Cain Hope Felder are excellent books.

        BTW, I heard that Wimbush presented his book at the SBL in Nashville (I
        pulled info from Amazon):

        African Americans & the Bible : Sacred Text and Social Texture
        by Rosemary C. Rodman (Editor), Vincent L. Wimbush (Editor)
        Our Price: $99.95
        Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.
        Hardcover - 750 pages (October 2000)
        Continuum Pub Group; ISBN: 0826412939 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.89 x 10.31
        x 6.79 (see attached review)

        Perhaps some other books to be considered:

        Charles Copher, Black Biblical Studies: Biblical and Theological Issues on
        the Black Presence in the Bible, Black Light Fellowship, Chicago, IL,
        0933176-38-4. Tel# (312)563-0081

        Randell Bailey & Jaquelyn Grant,eds. The Recovery of Black Presence:An
        Interdisciplinary Exploration, Abingdon Press, Nashville,0-687-35735-7

        ---Also, might be worthwhile perusing some of the biblical interpretation
        essays in James Cone's work, Documentary History...
        Lorna Wilson





        --------------------------Editorial Reviews-----------------------------
        African Americans & the Bible : Sacred Text and Social Texture


        Genevieve E. Fabre, University of Paris
        "An astoundingly thorough, multi-faceted examination of the ways the African
        American group and the Bible have interaced..."

        Book Description
        A unique study of how the Bible "constructs" African Americans and how
        African Americans "constructs" the Bible.

        Perhaps no other group of people has been as much formed by biblical texts
        and tropes as African Americans. From literture and the arts to popular
        culture and everyday life, the Bible courses through black society and
        culture, like the Mississippi through the American heartland. Despite the
        enormous recent interest in African American religion, relatively little
        attention has been paid to the diversity of ways in which African Americans
        have utilized the Bible.

        African Americans and the Bible is the fruit of a four-year collaborative
        research project directed by Vincent L. Wimbush and funded by the Lilly
        Endowment. It brings together scholars and experts (sixty-eight in all) form
        a wide range of academic and artistic fields and disciplines-inlcuding
        ethnography, cultural history, and biblical studies and also music, film,
        dance, drama, and literature.

        The focus is on the complex interaction between the people known as African
        Americans and that complex of rhetorics, visions, and ideologies known as
        the Bible. As such, the book is less about the meaning(s) of the Bible than
        about the Bible and meaning(s), less about the world(s) of the Bible than
        about how worlds and the Bible interact-in short, about how a text
        constructs a people and a people constructs a text. It is about a particular
        socio-cultural formation but also about the dynamics that obtain in the
        interrelation between any group of people and sacred texts in general. Thus
        African Americans and the Bible provides an exemplum of socio-cultural
        formation and a critical lens through which the process of socio-cultural
        formation can be viewed.

        About the Author
        Vincent L. Wimbush is professor of New Testament and Christian origins at
        Union Theological Seminary in New York. He is the author of Paul the Worldly
        Ascetic; editor of Ascetic Behavior in Greco-Roman Antiquity: A Sourcebook;
        Discursive Formations, Ascetic Piety, and the Interpretation of Early
        Christian Literature; and co-editor of Asceticism.


        _________________________________________________________________
        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
      • Steve Allison
        ... Doesn t all the evidence point to a provenance in the Middles Ages for this artifact? So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time, splinters of
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 26, 2000
          At 12:59 PM 12/26/2000 +0100, you wrote:
          >........
          >
          >Can the Shroud of Turin provide a clue? Without taking sides in this ongoing
          >controversy, I would think that a discussion of the physical appearance of
          >the historical Jesus should at least include a reference to it, on the
          >narrow chance that the shroud really is what it is alleged to be.
          >
          >Jan Sammer

          Doesn't all the evidence point to a provenance in the Middles Ages for this
          artifact? So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time, splinters
          of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing to
          do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
          in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it? And
          all the other church fathers. The carbon dating, verified by several
          independent investigators, is surely telling.

          Steve Allison
          Knoxville, TN
        • Robert M. Schacht
          ... Lorna, So, can you tell us what his conclusion is, concerning Mark Goodacre s question about the appearance and/or physical appearance of Jesus? And what
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 26, 2000
            At 05:48 AM 12/26/00 , you wrote:
            >
            > Robert,
            >
            > I am entering into this conversation late regarding possible resources for
            > "Jesus as the man of colour." Both Stony Road we Trod and Troubling Biblical
            > Waters:Race, Class, and Family by Cain Hope Felder are excellent books.


            Lorna,
            So, can you tell us what his conclusion is, concerning Mark Goodacre's question
            about the appearance and/or physical appearance of Jesus? And what evidence he
            uses to support that conclusion?


            >
            > BTW, I heard that Wimbush presented his book at the SBL in Nashville (I
            > pulled info from Amazon):
            >
            > African Americans & the Bible : Sacred Text and Social Texture
            > by Rosemary C. Rodman (Editor), Vincent L. Wimbush (Editor)
            > Our Price: $99.95
            > Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.
            > Hardcover - 750 pages (October 2000)
            > Continuum Pub Group; ISBN: 0826412939 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.89 x 10.31
            > x 6.79 (see attached review)
            >
            > Perhaps some other books to be considered:
            >
            > Charles Copher, Black Biblical Studies: Biblical and Theological Issues on
            > the Black Presence in the Bible, Black Light Fellowship, Chicago, IL,
            > 0933176-38-4. Tel# (312)563-0081
            >
            > Randell Bailey & Jaquelyn Grant,eds. The Recovery of Black Presence:An
            > Interdisciplinary Exploration, Abingdon Press, Nashville,0-687-35735-7
            >
            > ---Also, might be worthwhile perusing some of the biblical interpretation
            > essays in James Cone's work, Documentary History...
            > Lorna Wilson



            Frankly, I can't see from any of the review comments below what any of this has
            to do with the person of the historical Jesus. Can you enlighten me?

            Thanks,
            Bob






            >
            > --------------------------Editorial Reviews-----------------------------
            > African Americans & the Bible : Sacred Text and Social Texture
            >
            >
            > Genevieve E. Fabre, University of Paris
            > "An astoundingly thorough, multi-faceted examination of the ways the African
            > American group and the Bible have interaced..."
            >
            > Book Description
            > A unique study of how the Bible "constructs" African Americans and how
            > African Americans "constructs" the Bible.
            >
            > Perhaps no other group of people has been as much formed by biblical texts
            > and tropes as African Americans. From literture and the arts to popular
            > culture and everyday life, the Bible courses through black society and
            > culture, like the Mississippi through the American heartland. Despite the
            > enormous recent interest in African American religion, relatively little
            > attention has been paid to the diversity of ways in which African Americans
            > have utilized the Bible.
            >
            > African Americans and the Bible is the fruit of a four-year collaborative
            > research project directed by Vincent L. Wimbush and funded by the Lilly
            > Endowment. It brings together scholars and experts (sixty-eight in all) form
            > a wide range of academic and artistic fields and disciplines-inlcuding
            > ethnography, cultural history, and biblical studies and also music, film,
            > dance, drama, and literature.
            >
            > The focus is on the complex interaction between the people known as African
            > Americans and that complex of rhetorics, visions, and ideologies known as
            > the Bible. As such, the book is less about the meaning(s) of the Bible than
            > about the Bible and meaning(s), less about the world(s) of the Bible than
            > about how worlds and the Bible interact-in short, about how a text
            > constructs a people and a people constructs a text. It is about a particular
            > socio-cultural formation but also about the dynamics that obtain in the
            > interrelation between any group of people and sacred texts in general. Thus
            > African Americans and the Bible provides an exemplum of socio-cultural
            > formation and a critical lens through which the process of socio-cultural
            > formation can be viewed.
            >
            > About the Author
            > Vincent L. Wimbush is professor of New Testament and Christian origins at
            > Union Theological Seminary in New York. He is the author of Paul the Worldly
            > Ascetic; editor of Ascetic Behavior in Greco-Roman Antiquity: A Sourcebook;
            > Discursive Formations, Ascetic Piety, and the Interpretation of Early
            > Christian Literature; and co-editor of Asceticism.
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            > <http://explorer.msn.com>http://explorer.msn.com
            >
            >
            >
            > eGroups
            > Sponsor<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=102308.1038796.2731130.908943/D=egroupmail/S
            > =1700077360:N/A=466331/?http://features.yahoo.com/webceleb/carrey/>
            >
            > The XTalk Home Page is <http://www.xtalk.org>http://www.xtalk.org
            >
            > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
            >
            > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
            >
          • Jan Sammer
            ... ongoing ... of ... this ... to ... Reading through various websites on the subject recently, I got the impression that the matter was not completely
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 27, 2000
              > >Can the Shroud of Turin provide a clue? Without taking sides in this
              ongoing
              > >controversy, I would think that a discussion of the physical appearance
              of
              > >the historical Jesus should at least include a reference to it, on the
              > >narrow chance that the shroud really is what it is alleged to be.
              > >
              > >Jan Sammer
              >
              > Doesn't all the evidence point to a provenance in the Middles Ages for
              this
              > artifact? So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time, splinters
              > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
              to
              > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
              > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it? And
              > all the other church fathers. The carbon dating, verified by several
              > independent investigators, is surely telling.
              >
              > Steve Allison
              > Knoxville, TN
              >
              Reading through various websites on the subject recently, I got the
              impression that the matter was not completely settled as yet. I must agree
              with you that the chances of its being authentic are vanishingly small. Even
              so, it seems to me that a discussion of the physical appearance of the
              historical Jesus ought to make some sort of a reference to it, if only to
              reject the credibility of its evidence.

              Jan
            • Walter Mattfeld
              In regards to Jesus appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache. Later, he acquires
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 27, 2000
                In regards to Jesus' appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art
                frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache. Later,
                he acquires the beard. The catacomb wall paintings render his skin color as
                that of a fair European, not dark and swarthy.

                All the best,

                Walter

                Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld
                Walldorf by Heidelberg
                Baden-Wurttemburg
                Germany
                http://bibleorigins.homestead.com/index.html

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Jan Sammer <sammer@...>
                To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:27 PM
                Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour


                > > >Can the Shroud of Turin provide a clue? Without taking sides in this
                > ongoing
                > > >controversy, I would think that a discussion of the physical appearance
                > of
                > > >the historical Jesus should at least include a reference to it, on the
                > > >narrow chance that the shroud really is what it is alleged to be.
                > > >
                > > >Jan Sammer
                > >
                > > Doesn't all the evidence point to a provenance in the Middles Ages for
                > this
                > > artifact? So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
                splinters
                > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
                > to
                > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
                > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
                And
                > > all the other church fathers. The carbon dating, verified by several
                > > independent investigators, is surely telling.
                > >
                > > Steve Allison
                > > Knoxville, TN
                > >
                > Reading through various websites on the subject recently, I got the
                > impression that the matter was not completely settled as yet. I must agree
                > with you that the chances of its being authentic are vanishingly small.
                Even
                > so, it seems to me that a discussion of the physical appearance of the
                > historical Jesus ought to make some sort of a reference to it, if only to
                > reject the credibility of its evidence.
                >
                > Jan
                >
                >
                >
                > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
                >
                > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                >
                > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
              • Jason Godesky
                ... I m only beginning my studies of the historical Jesus, and this discussion group has been greatly illuminating in those studies ... I intend to continue my
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 27, 2000
                  > In regards to Jesus' appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art
                  >
                  > frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache.
                  > Later,
                  > he acquires the beard. The catacomb wall paintings render his skin
                  > color as
                  > that of a fair European, not dark and swarthy.
                  >
                  > All the best,
                  >
                  > Walter

                  I'm only beginning my studies of the historical Jesus, and this
                  discussion group has been greatly illuminating in those studies ... I
                  intend to continue my lurker-status in the main, but for now, this post
                  reminded me of something which some on this list may find interesting
                  and pertinent: some time ago, I recall seeing a documentary--my
                  apologies, but I can't remember the name--which stated that the
                  appearance of Christ in the catacombs was basically the appearance of
                  Apollo; the Greek god of light's appearance seemed the obvious choice
                  for Jesus' to these early Christians. Later, however, the documentary
                  claimed that the Jesus image we know best--with the beard--is due to
                  mimicking the statue of Zeus at Ephesus; the one which, of course, was
                  one of the Seven Wonders. This, too, was theological: Zeus, the closest
                  Greek religion came to monotheism, could easily be seen in the place of
                  Jesus, and the great, wondrous, golden statue was also befitting his
                  divinity. The documentary concluded that neither of these were Jesus'
                  actual appearance, but rather, the product of what basically surmounts
                  to Greek syncretism.

                  Returning to the audience,
                  Jason Godesky
                • Jan Sammer
                  ... You must mean the Phidias statue of Zeus at Olympia... Ephesus was more renowned for its cult of Artemis. Jan
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 27, 2000
                    > Jason Godesky:

                    ...Later, however, the documentary
                    > claimed that the Jesus image we know best--with the beard--is due to
                    > mimicking the statue of Zeus at Ephesus; the one which, of course, was
                    > one of the Seven Wonders.

                    You must mean the Phidias' statue of Zeus at Olympia... Ephesus was more
                    renowned for its cult of Artemis.

                    Jan
                  • Lorna Wilson
                    Robert, In response to your request I would suggest that you refer to Felder s work directly. He is the editor of a number of articles based on African
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 27, 2000
                      Robert,

                      In response to your request I would suggest that you refer to Felder's work
                      directly. He is the editor of a number of articles based on African American
                      hermenutics. My intent was only to provide a pointer to several references
                      based on Mark's interest in the topic "Jesus as a man of colour." I would
                      love to explore this topic myself but my bandwidth is limited this week for
                      more urgent deliverables. Should I have the chance to peruse Felder's
                      anthology I will respond to your request. Unfortunately, right now I will
                      have to table your request for a later date. Thanks for your interest in
                      this matter.


                      Sincerely,
                      Lorna Wilson

                      -----------------------------start of Robert S. email------------------
                      >From: "Robert M. Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                      >>Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Jesus as a man of colour
                      >Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:00:58 -0700
                      >
                      >Lorna,
                      >So, can you tell us what his conclusion is, concerning Mark Goodacre's
                      >question
                      >about the appearance and/or physical appearance of Jesus? And what evidence
                      >he
                      >uses to support that conclusion?

                      >-----------------------------------start of LLW email------------------
                      >At 05:48 AM 12/26/00 , you wrote:

                      > >
                      > > Robert,
                      > >
                      > > I am entering into this conversation late regarding possible resources
                      >for
                      > > "Jesus as the man of colour." Both Stony Road we Trod and Troubling
                      >Biblical
                      > > Waters:Race, Class, and Family by Cain Hope Felder are excellent books.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > BTW, I heard that Wimbush presented his book at the SBL in Nashville (I
                      > > pulled info from Amazon):
                      > >
                      > > African Americans & the Bible : Sacred Text and Social Texture
                      > > by Rosemary C. Rodman (Editor), Vincent L. Wimbush (Editor)
                      > > Our Price: $99.95
                      > > Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.
                      > > Hardcover - 750 pages (October 2000)
                      > > Continuum Pub Group; ISBN: 0826412939 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.89 x
                      >10.31
                      > > x 6.79 (see attached review)
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps some other books to be considered:
                      > >
                      > > Charles Copher, Black Biblical Studies: Biblical and Theological Issues
                      >on
                      > > the Black Presence in the Bible, Black Light Fellowship, Chicago, IL,
                      > > 0933176-38-4. Tel# (312)563-0081
                      > >
                      > > Randell Bailey & Jaquelyn Grant,eds. The Recovery of Black Presence:An
                      > > Interdisciplinary Exploration, Abingdon Press, Nashville,0-687-35735-7
                      > >
                      > > ---Also, might be worthwhile perusing some of the biblical
                      >interpretation
                      > > essays in James Cone's work, Documentary History...
                      > > Lorna Wilson
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Frankly, I can't see from any of the review comments below what any of this
                      >has
                      >to do with the person of the historical Jesus. Can you enlighten me?
                      >
                      >Thanks,
                      >Bob
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > --------------------------Editorial Reviews-----------------------------
                      > > African Americans & the Bible : Sacred Text and Social Texture
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Genevieve E. Fabre, University of Paris
                      > > "An astoundingly thorough, multi-faceted examination of the ways the
                      >African
                      > > American group and the Bible have interaced..."
                      > >
                      > > Book Description
                      > > A unique study of how the Bible "constructs" African Americans and how
                      > > African Americans "constructs" the Bible.
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps no other group of people has been as much formed by biblical
                      >texts
                      > > and tropes as African Americans. From literture and the arts to popular
                      > > culture and everyday life, the Bible courses through black society and
                      > > culture, like the Mississippi through the American heartland. Despite
                      >the
                      > > enormous recent interest in African American religion, relatively little
                      > > attention has been paid to the diversity of ways in which African
                      >Americans
                      > > have utilized the Bible.
                      > >
                      > > African Americans and the Bible is the fruit of a four-year
                      >collaborative
                      > > research project directed by Vincent L. Wimbush and funded by the Lilly
                      > > Endowment. It brings together scholars and experts (sixty-eight in all)
                      >form
                      > > a wide range of academic and artistic fields and disciplines-inlcuding
                      > > ethnography, cultural history, and biblical studies and also music,
                      >film,
                      > > dance, drama, and literature.
                      > >
                      > > The focus is on the complex interaction between the people known as
                      >African
                      > > Americans and that complex of rhetorics, visions, and ideologies known
                      >as
                      > > the Bible. As such, the book is less about the meaning(s) of the Bible
                      >than
                      > > about the Bible and meaning(s), less about the world(s) of the Bible
                      >than
                      > > about how worlds and the Bible interact-in short, about how a text
                      > > constructs a people and a people constructs a text. It is about a
                      >particular
                      > > socio-cultural formation but also about the dynamics that obtain in the
                      > > interrelation between any group of people and sacred texts in general.
                      >Thus
                      > > African Americans and the Bible provides an exemplum of socio-cultural
                      > > formation and a critical lens through which the process of
                      >socio-cultural
                      > > formation can be viewed.
                      > >
                      > > About the Author
                      > > Vincent L. Wimbush is professor of New Testament and Christian origins
                      >at
                      > > Union Theological Seminary in New York. He is the author of Paul the
                      >Worldly
                      > > Ascetic; editor of Ascetic Behavior in Greco-Roman Antiquity: A
                      >Sourcebook;
                      > > Discursive Formations, Ascetic Piety, and the Interpretation of Early
                      > > Christian Literature; and co-editor of Asceticism.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                      > > <http://explorer.msn.com>http://explorer.msn.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > eGroups
                      > >
                      >Sponsor<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=102308.1038796.2731130.908943/D=egroupmail/S
                      > > =1700077360:N/A=466331/?http://features.yahoo.com/webceleb/carrey/>
                      > >
                      > > The XTalk Home Page is <http://www.xtalk.org>http://www.xtalk.org
                      > >
                      > > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                      >crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                      >crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >

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                    • Secher
                      Hi! Folks, Several folks have made inquiries about the historic reliability of the existence of the village of Nazerith in the early part of the first century.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 28, 2000
                        Hi! Folks,

                        Several folks have made inquiries about the historic
                        reliability of the existence of the village of Nazerith
                        in the early part of the first century.
                        Frankly, I never questioned it. But...

                        I have done extensive META searches and have not
                        been able to come up with any information. If someone
                        could offer some opinions or point me in the right
                        direction I would appreciate it.

                        Talk to you later, Howard ~&~
                        Any questions about the Historical Jesus?
                        http://www.onelist.com/group/HistoricalJesus101
                        Kindly overlook contextual errors, I use speech recognition software.

                        Doreen wrote:
                        If I can point out to the group that the OT records no such city as
                        Nazareth and Josephus reportedly does not mention it, either, and that
                        my findings are this city came into being after the gospels were
                        written, what would you say then?
                        ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
                      • Weasel
                        ... It is my recollection that a few artifacts which may dated to the 1st century CE or earlier have been found in the area, however, there is some dispute on
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 28, 2000
                          At 12:19 12/28/2000 -0800, you wrote:
                          >
                          >Hi! Folks,
                          >
                          >Several folks have made inquiries about the historic
                          >reliability of the existence of the village of Nazerith
                          >in the early part of the first century.
                          >Frankly, I never questioned it. But...
                          >
                          >I have done extensive META searches and have not
                          >been able to come up with any information. If someone
                          >could offer some opinions or point me in the right
                          >direction I would appreciate it.
                          >


                          It is my recollection that a few artifacts which may dated to the 1st
                          century CE or earlier have been found in the area, however, there is some
                          dispute on the dating with some folks arguing for a 2nd or 3rd century CE
                          dating.

                          Rousseau and Arav have a brief discussion of this question in their Jesus
                          and his World, Fortress, Minneapolis, 1995. Other than a brief mention of a
                          few tombs, they are vague as to the nature and dating of this material.

                          The modern city of Nazareth has a population of over 50,000 which makes
                          archaeological work difficult. Nevertheless, there are currently digs
                          underway at the so-called Nazareth Village Farm which was discovered in
                          1996. Some preliminary info on this site can be found at:

                          http://www.csec.ac.uk/farm.htm

                          Whatever was there in the 1st century CE was probably too minor to have
                          caught the attention of the ancient writers.

                          Dave Jones
                          San Francisco
                        • Robert M. Schacht
                          ... Walter, Thanks! How early is early? Can you cite particular depictions and their estimated dates, along with published references? And can you respond to
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 28, 2000
                            At 12:52 PM 12/27/00 , Walter wrote:
                            >
                            > In regards to Jesus' appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art
                            > frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache. Later,
                            > he acquires the beard. The catacomb wall paintings render his skin color as
                            > that of a fair European, not dark and swarthy.


                            Walter,
                            Thanks! How early is early?
                            Can you cite particular depictions and their estimated dates, along with
                            published references?
                            And can you respond to Jason's point about the influence of Greek mythology on
                            these depictions?

                            Thanks,
                            Bob
                          • Robert M. Schacht
                            ... There have been archaeological excavations at the site. I think if you consult the XTalk archives you will find some discussion and the references. Bob
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 28, 2000
                              At 01:19 PM 12/28/00 , Howard wrote:

                              >
                              > Hi! Folks,
                              >
                              > Several folks have made inquiries about the historic
                              > reliability of the existence of the village of Nazerith
                              > in the early part of the first century.
                              > Frankly, I never questioned it. But...
                              >
                              > I have done extensive META searches and have not
                              > been able to come up with any information. If someone
                              > could offer some opinions or point me in the right
                              > direction I would appreciate it.


                              There have been archaeological excavations at the site. I think if you consult
                              the XTalk archives you will find some discussion and the references.

                              Bob
                            • Austin Meredith
                              ... There exists some archeological evidence that there were humans, and human activities, present in the general area which we now refer to as Nazareth.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 29, 2000
                                >Whatever was there in the 1st century CE was probably too minor to have
                                >caught the attention of the ancient writers.

                                There exists some archeological evidence that there were humans, and human
                                activities, present in the general area which we now refer to as Nazareth.
                                That's not so amazing, of course, as one would rather expect that all
                                available sites would have been being utilized by someone, who was doing
                                something or other to utilize the space or resources of said sites. :-)

                                I don't believe that anyone has ever suggested, however, that there has
                                ever been so much as a shred of archeological evidence, or of documentary
                                evidence outside the New Testament texts, that the general area which we
                                now refer to as Nazareth was then being referred to as Nazareth, or that
                                any of the New Testament references to a little community of Nazareth are
                                to be associated with this particular area.

                                To the best of my knowledge, all the available hard or corroborative
                                information is still entirely compatible with the two alternative hypotheses:

                                Hypothesis #1: That all the New Testament references to a locality named
                                Nazareth are the result of a mere linguistic confusion of a
                                personal-descriptor phrase with a place-or-origin phrase, a confusion which
                                has hardened into a dogma or tradition.

                                Hypothesis #2: That in a later century, when Crusaders and other tourists
                                began to arrive from Christian Europe, with coins jingling in their purses
                                and swords dangling by their sides, the local Palestinians began to create
                                a tourist industry, so that when some stranger with a purse and a sword
                                latched onto a local, with a "Look at my carrot and look at my stick, and
                                then take me directly to the holy ground of Nazareth," the local would
                                know what to do in order to optimize this situation.

                                I'm not embracing, myself, either one of these above two hypotheses. I'm
                                merely commenting here on the state of the hard evidence extrinsic to the
                                New Testament documents themselves.

                                \s\ Austin Meredith <Kouroo@...> "Stack of the Artist of Kouroo" Project
                              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                ... I think all that you request may be found in Grady Snyder s _Ante Pacem_, the now standard reference work (which, unfortunately, I do not possess!) on
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 29, 2000
                                  "Robert M. Schacht" wrote:

                                  > At 12:52 PM 12/27/00 , Walter wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > In regards to Jesus' appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art
                                  > > frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache. Later,
                                  > > he acquires the beard. The catacomb wall paintings render his skin color as
                                  > > that of a fair European, not dark and swarthy.
                                  >
                                  > Walter,
                                  > Thanks! How early is early?
                                  > Can you cite particular depictions and their estimated dates, along with
                                  > published references?
                                  > And can you respond to Jason's point about the influence of Greek mythology on
                                  > these depictions?

                                  I think all that you request may be found in Grady Snyder's _Ante Pacem_, the now
                                  standard reference work (which, unfortunately, I do not possess!) on these
                                  matters.

                                  In any case, I'm CCing this message to Grady. If he responds, I'll post what he
                                  has to say.

                                  Yours, with wishes for a good New Year,

                                  Jeffrey
                                  --
                                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                                  7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                  Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                  e-mail jgibson000@...
                                • Walter Mattfeld
                                  Dear Bob, Let me first make clear I am an amateur scholar, with very keen interests in all this talk about the historicty of Christ. From the following
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 29, 2000
                                    Dear Bob,

                                    Let me first make clear I am an "amateur" scholar, with very keen interests
                                    in all this talk about the historicty of Christ. From the following books, I
                                    make the following observations as to how Christ is represented.

                                    1. A "mid-fifth century ivory" from Palermo shows Jesus healing a leper.
                                    Christ is beardless with long hair (hair touching shoulders), and a halo.
                                    (p.153, Michael Walsh. Roots of Christianity. London. Grafton Books. 1986.
                                    ISBN 0-246-12757-0 hdbk)

                                    2. "Third-century" catacomb (color photo) from the tomb of the Aurelii in
                                    Rome. Christ in midst of 12 apostles. He is beardless with "short hair."
                                    (pp.22-23, Walsh)

                                    3, Christ, beardless, with short hair as the good shephered hold a lamb on
                                    shoulders. From the catacomb of Domitilla. (color photo, pp.52-53, Walsh)

                                    4. Christ, beardless, short-haired, standing, kneeling woman touching hem of
                                    his robe seeking healing, provenance not given.[Toynbee says SS. Petro e
                                    Marcellino, p.220] color photo, p.56, Walsh)

                                    5. Christ, beardless, short-haired, raising Lazarus from the dead. Gold or
                                    gilt painting on glass ? (described as a medallion, no date, p.57, Walsh)

                                    6. Christ, beardless, long-haired (by long haired I mean the hair almost
                                    touches the shoulders). A bas-relief from a sarcophagus ca. 350 AD showing
                                    the passions of Christ (pp.58-9, Walsh)

                                    7. Beardless, short-haired Christ at well with Samaritan woman (color photo,
                                    catacomb, date & location not given, p.93)

                                    7. Shroud of Turin with Christ bearded and long haired (p.67, Walsh)

                                    8. Bearded, long-haired Christ seated, wall painting (no date or provenance)
                                    (p.88, Walsh)

                                    There are many other pictures of Christ, in color, from catacomb paintings,
                                    but Walsh doesn't always bother to list date or place. Suffice to say, most
                                    of the pictures show him beardless with short or long hair, and appear to
                                    date ca. 350 A.D. His skin color appears light or fair northern European,
                                    but his hair is either dark or light brown (no Nordic Blonde !).
                                    From the few "dated examples" in Walsh's book, it would appear that Christ
                                    was frequently portrayed beardless in Early Christian art, at least through
                                    the mid 5th century AD. Perhaps the 6th century witnessed him being
                                    portrayed bearded ?
                                    One author, I forgot where I read it, stated that the Christians might have
                                    been inspired by statues of Aesculapius, the Greek god of healing (Christ
                                    being noted for healing). He noted Aesculapius was portrayed as bearded,
                                    with eyes "rolled up to heaven," with a serene facial expression. The
                                    bearded Christ is shown in the same manner.

                                    I recall reading somewhere that Christ beardless, was likened to Apollo, the
                                    sun god. A mosaic (black &white photo) shows Christ riding the "chariot of
                                    the Sun" from the Necropolis of St. Peter's Rome. He appears beardless with
                                    halo and rays (p.303, Arnold Toynbee, editor. The Crucible of Christianity.
                                    NY. World Publishing Co., 1969)

                                    "fourth-century" mosaic of a beardless, long haired Christ with chi-rho
                                    monogram behind head (Blonde hair ? yellow tiles ?, color photo, from a
                                    floor at Hinton St. Mary, Dorset, England, found 12 Sept. 1963, p.173,
                                    Toynbee)

                                    Ivory of Christ carrying cross, then crucified, beardless, long-haired
                                    "fifth-century" (p.224, Toynbee)

                                    Hope this has helped.

                                    All the best,

                                    Walter

                                    Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld
                                    Walldorf by Heidelberg
                                    Baden-Wurttemburg
                                    Germany
                                    http://bibleorigins.homestead.com/index.html



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Robert M. Schacht <r_schacht@...>
                                    To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 5:57 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour


                                    > At 12:52 PM 12/27/00 , Walter wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > In regards to Jesus' appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art
                                    > > frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache.
                                    Later,
                                    > > he acquires the beard. The catacomb wall paintings render his skin color
                                    as
                                    > > that of a fair European, not dark and swarthy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Walter,
                                    > Thanks! How early is early?
                                    > Can you cite particular depictions and their estimated dates, along with
                                    > published references?
                                    > And can you respond to Jason's point about the influence of Greek
                                    mythology on
                                    > these depictions?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
                                    >
                                    > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                    >
                                    > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Weasel
                                    ... color as ... what he ... Snyder indicates that the earliest extant images of Jesus are usually of a young Jesus. If my data is correct, there are a few
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 29, 2000
                                      At 08:51 12/29/2000 -0600, you wrote:
                                      >"Robert M. Schacht" wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> At 12:52 PM 12/27/00 , Walter wrote:
                                      >> >
                                      >> > In regards to Jesus' appearance, I might add, that Early Christian art
                                      >> > frequently shows Jesus as clean-shaven, he has no beard or moustache.
                                      >Later,
                                      >> > he acquires the beard. The catacomb wall paintings render his skin
                                      color as
                                      >> > that of a fair European, not dark and swarthy.
                                      >>
                                      >> Walter,
                                      >> Thanks! How early is early?
                                      >> Can you cite particular depictions and their estimated dates, along with
                                      >> published references?
                                      >> And can you respond to Jason's point about the influence of Greek
                                      >mythology on
                                      >> these depictions?
                                      >
                                      >I think all that you request may be found in Grady Snyder's _Ante Pacem_,
                                      >the now
                                      >standard reference work (which, unfortunately, I do not possess!) on these
                                      >matters.
                                      >
                                      >In any case, I'm CCing this message to Grady. If he responds, I'll post
                                      what he
                                      >has to say.
                                      >
                                      Snyder indicates that the earliest extant images of Jesus are usually of a
                                      young Jesus. "If my data is correct, there are a few bearded and
                                      consequently older Jesus representations before Constantine. " Ante Pacem
                                      page 56



                                      ----------
                                      Weasel
                                      (Mustela nivalis)

                                      "It has been my experience that those
                                      with no vices have very few virtues."
                                      Abraham Lincoln
                                    • Mark Cameron
                                      From: Jan Sammer To: Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
                                        From: Jan Sammer <sammer@...>
                                        To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:27 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour


                                        > > >Can the Shroud of Turin provide a clue? Without taking sides in this
                                        > ongoing
                                        > > >controversy, I would think that a discussion of the physical appearance
                                        > of
                                        > > >the historical Jesus should at least include a reference to it, on the
                                        > > >narrow chance that the shroud really is what it is alleged to be.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Jan Sammer
                                        > >
                                        > > Doesn't all the evidence point to a provenance in the Middles Ages for
                                        > this
                                        > > artifact? So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
                                        splinters
                                        > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
                                        > to
                                        > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
                                        > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
                                        And
                                        > > all the other church fathers. The carbon dating, verified by several
                                        > > independent investigators, is surely telling.
                                        > >
                                        > > Steve Allison
                                        > > Knoxville, TN
                                        > >
                                        > Reading through various websites on the subject recently, I got the
                                        > impression that the matter was not completely settled as yet. I must agree
                                        > with you that the chances of its being authentic are vanishingly small.
                                        Even
                                        > so, it seems to me that a discussion of the physical appearance of the
                                        > historical Jesus ought to make some sort of a reference to it, if only to
                                        > reject the credibility of its evidence.
                                        >
                                        > Jan

                                        Without entering into the shroud debate, there is an image of Jesus that
                                        does seem to have played an important role in shaping later artistic
                                        impressions of Jesus: the image of Edessa, which is sometimes referred to as
                                        the Mandylion. The image was allegedly discovered during a siege of Edessa
                                        (a Parthian city which may have been Christianized as early as 200 a.d.) by
                                        the Persians in 544 a.d., and is credited with miraculously saving the city.
                                        The Edessa image was a face imprinted on a cloth and was referred to in 6th
                                        century sources as "not made with hands." Shortly thereafter, the typical
                                        Byzantine image of Christ (bearded, wide eyes, forward looking face) starts
                                        making its appearance on coins and icons, replacing the earlier younger,
                                        beardless images of Christ. In 944 a.d., the image was transferred from
                                        Edessa to Constantinople, where it became highly venerated in the Byzantine
                                        liturgy, receiving its own feast day on August 16, the day after the
                                        Dormition of Mary. There are numerous artistic representations of this
                                        image dating from the 10th through 12th centuries. The image seems to have
                                        disappeared after the sack of Constantinople in 1204.

                                        There are a number of uncanny resemblances between the Edessa face in
                                        Byzantine art and the face on the Shroud of Turin, and some have speculated
                                        that the two images are the same, with the cloth of Edessa being brought to
                                        Europe by the Crusaders, eventually showing up in 14th century France. This
                                        is of course highly speculative, given the C-14 dating of the Shroud. But
                                        there is no question that the Edessa image played an important role in
                                        transforming artistic representations of Jesus from the late 6th century
                                        onwards.

                                        Mark Cameron
                                        Ottawa, Canada
                                      • Billy Evans
                                        Steven Allison commented on the Shroud: So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time, splinters ... And According to Acts the first century people
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
                                          Steven Allison commented on the Shroud:

                                          So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
                                          splinters
                                          > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
                                          > to
                                          > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
                                          > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
                                          And

                                          According to Acts the first century people WERE interested in collecting
                                          bones and clothes of the Apostles. Just an observation, but it's so obvious
                                          that I must have missed your point.

                                          --William J Evans Jr
                                          grad of Hebrew Union College--Cincinnati
                                          Dissertation with UNISA
                                          10251 Pendery Drive
                                          Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
                                          bevans@...


                                          ----------
                                          >From: "Mark Cameron" <cameron_mark@...>
                                          >To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
                                          >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour
                                          >Date: Mon, Jan 1, 2001, 5:47 PM
                                          >

                                          > So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
                                          > splinters
                                          >> > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
                                          >> to
                                          >> > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
                                          >> > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
                                          > And
                                        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                          ... Um ...could I please have the reference(s) from Acts on this matter? Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
                                            .Billy Evans wrote:

                                            > Steven Allison commented on the Shroud:
                                            >
                                            > So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
                                            > splinters
                                            > > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
                                            > > to
                                            > > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
                                            > > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
                                            > And
                                            >
                                            > According to Acts the first century people WERE interested in collecting
                                            > bones and clothes of the Apostles. Just an observation, but it's so obvious
                                            > that I must have missed your point.

                                            Um ...could I please have the reference(s) from Acts on this matter?

                                            Yours,

                                            Jeffrey Gibson
                                            --
                                            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                                            7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                            Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                            e-mail jgibson000@...
                                          • Billy Evans
                                            Jeff: Acts 19:11-12 says: And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 1, 2001
                                              Jeff:

                                              Acts 19:11-12 says: "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of
                                              Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the
                                              sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them."

                                              Then there is Acts 5:15 which supports the notion of magic associated with
                                              Peter: "so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid
                                              them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might
                                              fall on some of them."

                                              I remember reading years ago the number of church fathers who acknowledged
                                              the large numbers of people who kept cloths etc of Christian miracle workers
                                              of the first century. Maybe, Quatson's Patrology will provide this
                                              information under Acts 19:11-12.

                                              I wish I could be of more help.

                                              --William J Evans Jr
                                              grad of Hebrew Union College--Cincinnati
                                              Dissertation with UNISA
                                              10251 Pendery Drive
                                              Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
                                              bevans@...


                                              ----------
                                              >From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                                              >To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Shroud was Re: Jesus as a man of colour
                                              >Date: Mon, Jan 1, 2001, 6:00 PM
                                              >

                                              > .Billy Evans wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> Steven Allison commented on the Shroud:
                                              >>
                                              >> So many other souvenirs were multiplying at that time,
                                              >> splinters
                                              >> > > of the cross, wise men's bones, etc. It seems to me that it has nothing
                                              >> > to
                                              >> > > do with anything that 1st century Jews and Jesus people were interested
                                              >> > > in. How could Paul have missed it or at least stayed quiet about it?
                                              >> And
                                              >>
                                              >> According to Acts the first century people WERE interested in collecting
                                              >> bones and clothes of the Apostles. Just an observation, but it's so obvious
                                              >> that I must have missed your point.
                                              >
                                              > Um ...could I please have the reference(s) from Acts on this matter?
                                              >
                                              > Yours,
                                              >
                                              > Jeffrey Gibson
                                              > --
                                              > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                                              > 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                              > Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                              > e-mail jgibson000@...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The XTalk Home Page is http://www.xtalk.org
                                              >
                                              > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@egroups.com
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                              >
                                              > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@egroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Mark Goodacre
                                              Many thanks for all the helpful feedback on the question of Jesus as a person of colour . I ve tried to sketch out some bits and bobs on my Jesus web site
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 9, 2001
                                                Many thanks for all the helpful feedback on the question of "Jesus
                                                as a person of colour". I've tried to sketch out some bits and
                                                bobs on my "Jesus" web site at:

                                                http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/jesus/colour.htm

                                                I should stress that this is just a short sketch of some of the
                                                relevant issues as I have picked them up in the literature and it will
                                                want a lot of revising as time goes on. It's an area where I'm
                                                trying to learn, so all help is much appreciated.

                                                Best wishes
                                                Mark


                                                -----------------------------
                                                Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                                Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                                University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                                Birmingham B15 2TT
                                                United Kingdom

                                                http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
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