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Re: [XTalk] Digest Number 225

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  • RSBrenchley@aol.com
    James Covey writes:
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 25, 2000
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      James Covey writes:

      << Does anyone really think that Matthew and Luke invented
      the *concept* of the virgin birth *independently*?
      >>

      Is the VB really in Luke? I've always read it as ambiguous; I could never
      convince myself, to the point where I wonder whether anyone would have seen
      it there in the text if it were not for Matthew.

      <I doubt very much that these earlier Matthean stories have
      >been choreographed to fit predetermined proof-texts.

      I think if we take out "predetermined" things make more sense...

      >May it not be more
      >likely that something happened here that Matthew now reflects on
      >theologically? And the very fact of the odd "fit" (if one can indeed call
      >it that) suggests that there is not as much alteration of history as Bill
      >might seem to think?

      I think what's been "altered" (or "stitched together," as you
      say, with OT texts) are sources, written and oral.
      I find it highly improbable that those sources are what we
      would call historical records.>>

      If this is midrashic (for want of a better word), then there doesn't seem
      to be any very clear motive or point of origin for this. If there was some
      scandal around Jesus' birth (as the Pantera story might suggest, though
      there's an obvious chicken/egg problem here), and/or if Jesus wasn't really
      of Davidic origin (as Mark 12:35-7 might seem to suggest) then Matthew could
      have been looking for a way round it, and come up with the idea of using
      Isaiah 7:14. Unless, of course, it was already in use somewhere in a
      Messianic context. The problem here, of course, is lack of evidence.

      Regards,

      Robert Brenchley

      RSBrenchley@...
    • RSBrenchley@aol.com
      Mark writes:
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 25, 2000
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        Mark writes:

        << Right. The reason I got into this pericope was actually in a different
        context, when I was writing about Marcan Priority. For it strikes
        me that in so far as indicators are present, the general situation
        seems to favour a (just) pre-70 date for Mark and a post-70 date for
        both Matthew and Luke, and that before one has begun looking at
        the internal literary questions. That just got me reflecting on Q too. >>

        How 'just'? Are you suggesting that Mark 13:14-27 may have been written
        during the war, perhaps by people who were aware of the advance of the Roman
        armies, and applied 21-22 to the insurgents? It's certainly an interesting
        idea, if that is what you mean.

        Regards,

        Robert Brenchley

        RSBrenchley@...
      • Mark Goodacre
        ... Yes; I suppose what I mean is that Mark 13 makes good sense to me if it is read against the background of the war, but it s not something I ve spent a lot
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 3, 2001
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          On 25 Dec 2000, at 13:17, RSBrenchley@... wrote:

          > How 'just'? Are you suggesting that Mark 13:14-27 may have been written
          > during the war, perhaps by people who were aware of the advance of the Roman
          > armies, and applied 21-22 to the insurgents? It's certainly an interesting
          > idea, if that is what you mean.

          Yes; I suppose what I mean is that Mark 13 makes good sense to
          me if it is read against the background of the war, but it's not
          something I've spent a lot of time reflecting on, so there may be
          good counter-arguments.

          Mark
          -----------------------------
          Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
          Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
          University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
          Birmingham B15 2TT
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          http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
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