Re: [XTalk] Altered States
- At 03:16 PM 12/23/00 , you wrote:
>At 2:18 PM on December 23, 200 David Barr wrote:rather different than the resurrection
>> But of course this experience [John's experience in Revelation] is
>> appearance claims of the gospels, which are presented as experiences in==================================
>> normal states of consciousness rather than altered states. But I also
>> suspect that these differentiations are much clearer to us than they were to
>> the early storytellers.
>This is the point I wanted to raise. John of Patmos' encounter with the
>risen Jesus in Revelation is very different from the appearance claims in
>the gospels and Acts. But, as Brian McCarthy implied at the beginning of
>this thread (12:42 AM 12/21/2000), those are not first-hand accounts. Might
>not the appearances of the risen Jesus referred to (but not detailed) by
>Paul be more like those of Revelation than like those of the gospels and
>I think David Barr is correct in saying that the difference between
>experiences in normal and altered states may not always have been clear to
>the early Christians. As Paul said (speaking of himself, according to most
>but not all commentators):
>"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I
>cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How
>that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words which it is
>not lawful for a man to utter" (2 Cor. 12.2-4).
>To restate my question: Did the resurrection appearances described by Paul
>(most famously in 1 Cor. 15.5-8) necessarily take place in a "normal" state
>of consciousness? Or might we legitimately hold that they were visionary
>experiences like those of John of Patmos ?
I think you might want to take a look at Stevan Davies' Jesus the Healer if
you're interested in this line of inquiry.